I just noticed after all my flying years that the T-birds fly #2 on the left wing and everything I've know is that -2 always flys right wing. I asked a few of my airforce buddies from the tactical community and the always understood -2 flys right wing and had no idea as to why the T-birds do it the oppisite way.
Is there anyone who knows why the T-birds do it this way? Got to be a logical reason.
Metro
Aircraft formation position for No. 2
Yes, No.2 is the left wingman. Wasn't aware that the Air Force normally keep the wingmen on the right (nowadays), but maybe left was the norm back in the day and the Thunderbirds just stuck with tradition...
Just a guess, I never thought any of it before and just assumed #2 was a leftie in the USAF. We'll get our educated crew on it (i.e. the real pilots).
Bon, do you know the correct answer having been an IP in the Air Force?
Just a guess, I never thought any of it before and just assumed #2 was a leftie in the USAF. We'll get our educated crew on it (i.e. the real pilots).
Bon, do you know the correct answer having been an IP in the Air Force?
What kinda brought this up was I was talking with a buddy of mine that flew vipers at Moody and in the Niagra guard and told me that he always knew that -2 flew right wing. I am flying with an Airforce guy on my current trip and I asked him the same question and he said -2 flys right wing and he had no idea as to why the T-birds position -2 on the left side.
Just curious as to why they position thier formation that way.
Metro
Just curious as to why they position thier formation that way.
Metro
Lame...Rhino wrote:Because its the "right" way to do it!
Talked to Bon about this today and he'll be asking some of his still active friends to see if this has changed in tactics more recently or not. Meanwhile, what Necigrad said about a flight of four being composed of two elements is correct and the #2 pilot would fly left wing. Keeping in mind that there is no "Slot" position in tactical formations, so there's always an element lead and a wingman and (at least) when they're joined up as (finger-) four the #2 pilot in the flight would be on the left. In a single element, it could be either side based on the operational and tacitcal needs as far as I understand. We'll see what some of the present fighter jocks say...
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Burner
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The only thing I can think of building on the fingertip formation idea is that during taxi and take-off the Tbirds are in numerical order as two-twos. I taxi into position with #3 whereas the Blues taxi with #2 & #4 as an element taxi correct? So in that sense its the Tbirds that have the "right" way
The Blues taxi the same way. They do a little bit different "stuff" depending on what takeoff they do, but if we were all taking off from the right, it would be 3 elements of 2 (1,2) (3,4) (5,6).
Blues solos always take off from the right, no matter what. Unless its a low show, in which case 6 takes off from the left and 5 from the right; its the diamond that changes. This year its been left to right for the diamond as they've done the half-cuban takeoff. If they did the straight loop off takeoff they would taxi to the right and take off right to left with the solos in trail. Low/flat show dictates the low-transition diamond take off, which is always right to left. (Notice how all the takeoffs end to the left, so as to set up the next maneuver, which is always the same no matter what the show [Diamond 360].)
Blues solos always take off from the right, no matter what. Unless its a low show, in which case 6 takes off from the left and 5 from the right; its the diamond that changes. This year its been left to right for the diamond as they've done the half-cuban takeoff. If they did the straight loop off takeoff they would taxi to the right and take off right to left with the solos in trail. Low/flat show dictates the low-transition diamond take off, which is always right to left. (Notice how all the takeoffs end to the left, so as to set up the next maneuver, which is always the same no matter what the show [Diamond 360].)
Talked with another one of my buddies I went through Flight school with. He was in VF-142 Ghost Riders. When we started to discussed the whole formation thing, it jogged a little bit of my memory of my formation training.
As far as the Navy is concerned, normally a tactical sortie CAP (combat air patrol) consists of 2 to 4 or even more aircraft dependent on the mission. 2 aircraft formation is called a "section". When they combine the 2 sections they form a "Division". They normally go out in pairs or "sections" but the "sections" can be joined and led by a "Lead" (how ever determined in the preflight brief). So the formation can vary drastically.
Another term used in Navy formation is "Parade" This consist of the lead directing the formation in the standard formation "Right Echelon" placing the -2,-3,-4 in order on the right wing. All carrier breaks are conducted on the port side(left for you Airforce types)of the ship thus requiring the aircraft to break left to set up for thier landing. Of course, non-standard Eschelon can be directed by the lead and he can position aircraft anywhere he sees fit for the situation.
If you have ever seen a carrier air group fly in after a cruise, it is a sight to see and always consist of several diamond formations combined. Don't aske me how they determine that. Lots of coordination!
As far as the T-Birds -2 on the left and why, I will ask my buddy that was the #6 pilot for the Thunderbirds next time I run into him at work. I usually run into him a couple of times a month.
Metro
As far as the Navy is concerned, normally a tactical sortie CAP (combat air patrol) consists of 2 to 4 or even more aircraft dependent on the mission. 2 aircraft formation is called a "section". When they combine the 2 sections they form a "Division". They normally go out in pairs or "sections" but the "sections" can be joined and led by a "Lead" (how ever determined in the preflight brief). So the formation can vary drastically.
Another term used in Navy formation is "Parade" This consist of the lead directing the formation in the standard formation "Right Echelon" placing the -2,-3,-4 in order on the right wing. All carrier breaks are conducted on the port side(left for you Airforce types)of the ship thus requiring the aircraft to break left to set up for thier landing. Of course, non-standard Eschelon can be directed by the lead and he can position aircraft anywhere he sees fit for the situation.
If you have ever seen a carrier air group fly in after a cruise, it is a sight to see and always consist of several diamond formations combined. Don't aske me how they determine that. Lots of coordination!
As far as the T-Birds -2 on the left and why, I will ask my buddy that was the #6 pilot for the Thunderbirds next time I run into him at work. I usually run into him a couple of times a month.
Metro
When the Blues flew F-4s, the diamond used to land in a right echelon, or "parade".Metro wrote: Another term used in Navy formation is "Parade" This consist of the lead directing the formation in the standard formation "Right Eschelon" placing the -2,-3,-4 in order on the right wing. All carrier breaks are conducted on the port side(left for you Airforce types)of the ship thus requiring the aircraft to break left to set up for thier landing. Of course, non-standard Eschelon can be directed by the lead and he can position aircraft anywhere he sees fit for the situation.
Quote on Qoute by an active USAF source that wrote:#2 on the Right Wing; This is simply not true. Nothing has changed in the USAF. #2 in any formation of more than 2 (one element), will always rejoin on the left wing if it is straight ahead or a turning rejoin. So, the information mentioned by the others is erroneous. Still can't explain why the goofy Navy/Marine Corps pilots have it backward......
