Large formations

[Vladimir]

Like this:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0869976/L/

The question is how does one fly in that kind of formation (keeping it solid) without "waves" propagating from the center? I mean, if the outmost wings are just flying the paint on the wingmen next to them the "wave effect" should be almost inevitable. But maybe I am just missing something

Again, IRL pilots have the seat of their pants, which is quite helpful at least in straight and level flight and coordinated turns.

[Burner]

The large formation teams fly trainer aircraft. This allows them to fly maneuvers at slower speed and with less G. That's my appraisal of how they get it done- that and the seat of the pants.

[Jonnyb]

The red arrows still do pull 9 G's and they are very smart and there timing is extremely safisticated. That is why i want to join them when i am older.

[Burner]

The BAE Hawk can only do 8Gs.

http://www.airforce.dnd.ca/equip/ct-155/intro_e.asp

What I meant was that when doing a formation loop the team will be going slower than the fighter aircraft teams. The aircraft will be less twitchy as it has less available G, this leads to a more inherently stable platform from the git-go.

The Arrows are still bada$$es mind you, the amount of maneuvers they do that involve all 9 planes is astounding.

[Lawndart]

G onset is different at different speeds. The aircraft is capable of 8G's, but I doubt they fly any profile at more than 4G's and the speed required to sustain the parameters to meet the maneuvers is far less than that required for a tactical jet fighter performing the same maneuver. None the less, the Red Arrows rock!

In Lock-On terms, given all the limitations of field of view, no force feedback of G's etc... The easiest trick for a steady 6+ ship formation is to fly off Boss primarily ("look through" the wingman in between) and use the wingman as a secondary reference, but only maintain lateral spacing on his wing, not pull or power! This is how we make our Delta look so steady and at very few times when the inner wingmen are glued to Boss can you fly completely off that pilot while on the outer wing. My tips for big formations: Fly paint off Boss and use the pilot next to you only for spacing. Pitch and power especially need to be anticipated by Boss, since each wingman fly a completely different pull, correcting for their own mistakes and Boss's adjustments at the same time. It's also very hard to match the power curve off of someone who is constantly making power changes, while Boss flies a constant setting. My last tip, build from the inside out, starting with super steady inner wing pilots allowing the more dynamic outer wingmen a stable platform!

LD

[Frazer]

Like always LD, true, true.....

[Rotorblade]

I agree with Lawndart, we use those methods to acheive large formations. It takes a lot of practice to making a large formation look great but it is worth the effort.

Rotorblade

[Vladimir]

Thanks for the tips, Lawndart.

We are doing pretty much the same thing for flying in delta (the lead is the primary focus, the inner wing is a secondary) - it is still not perfect, but we are working on it.

But it becomes harder to fly off the boss from a third wing position (7-ship wedge), since the distance from the lead is bigger the third wingman does not have the same amount of visual cues as the second or the first. And that's not even the 9-ship wedge yet

BTW, as a side note, I heard that in Red Arrows more experienced pilots fly farther from the lead, that is, newbies occupy the inner positions and move away every year during their 3-year tour.

[Frazer]

Well, newbies is relative ofcourse, they got enought practise to fly rock solid on a wing before they even join the whole formation. And like you noticed yourself, flying 2nd or 3rd off wing position is harder, so i suppose thats why the more experienced pilots fly further away from the lead

BTW Burner, i did not know that the Hawk had a ceiling of 1372m! LOL

[lqcorsa]

That would be cool if there was a Virtual Red Arrows in LOMAC, who did something like the snowbirds and just flew the A-10 with a red arrows paint.