Hello Everyone. Redeye and myself have been working hard to understand the Formation SOPs and have a few questions.
1)Which airport does the team mostly practice at?
2)On the Bon-Ton Roll what is the procedure that each pilot uses to perform the roll? As of right now I have been maintaining padlock on lead and rolling the jet left max stick deflection. I finish by trying to time the roll out with lead and then take it in. Just wondering if there is a better method.
3)How does lead know when he is at the 12,000 8,000 6,000 4,000 markers for the Hi-Lo Hit and other manuervers?
4)On the ThunderBird Pitch we have been adding 1500 ft to the Airport's Altitude. In the one airport the Barometic Altimeter reads 320 so we are shooting for 1820 on the Downwind at 250 knots. Does this sound correct and is there a method to zero the altimeter?
Thanks Guys!
Formation S0P Questions
Re: Formation S0P Questions
1. The one in the mission file that starts with a "K".Rock wrote:
1)Which airport does the team mostly practice at?
2)On the Bon-Ton Roll what is the procedure that each pilot uses to perform the roll? As of right now I have been maintaining padlock on lead and rolling the jet left max stick deflection. I finish by trying to time the roll out with lead and then take it in. Just wondering if there is a better method.
3)How does lead know when he is at the 12,000 8,000 6,000 4,000 markers for the Hi-Lo Hit and other manuervers?
4)On the ThunderBird Pitch we have been adding 1500 ft to the Airport's Altitude. In the one airport the Barometic Altimeter reads 320 so we are shooting for 1820 on the Downwind at 250 knots. Does this sound correct and is there a method to zero the altimeter?
2. What you're doing, plus if you can map "keypad-0 (hold) + keypad-5" to your joystick for "HUD zoom" use that during the roll to make a crisp 360 degree aileron roll and then release "HUD zoom" back to padlock view and take-it in for the (right turn) rejoin.
3. Using F10 view and its measurement tool you can go to satellite view (change from geographical to satellite before entering mission) to see the fields and features on the ground. Then use the measuring bar to plot 1nm, 1.3nm and 2nm. Note the ground features and then find them flying inbound and note where they fall in your filed of view when you're at 2nm, 1.3nm and 1nm (12K, 8K and 6K) respectively. In other words, once you've "memorized the landscape" it's all visual.
4. That's one good way. The other easier way is to use the altitude tape. Anytime you're below 2,500 AGL the altitude tape on the HUD reads AGL instead of MSL and as long as your straight & level it is accurate. You cannot be banked or at an angle for the radio altimeter to measure correctly, so until you level off on downwind it won't be giving you a good readout. I use muscle memory and timing until I shallow out my turn enough for the altitude tape to become effective and usually end up very close to 1,500 AGL. Your method works too, but then you have to use the "steam gauge" down in the cockpit.
LD
I've not done much with the -15 until joining this board, all of my experience has been with the A-10 in LOMAC. However, on the real -16 and hence maybe the -15 as well (which means maybe in LOMAC?), there's a RALT> (radar altimeter) carat on the HUD symbology. When out of range of the RALT, the altitude displayed is barometric and is a function of the air data system. I think Striker could update us. I'm a crew chief (aka "booger hooker"), and am only about 75%-90% reliable on the avionics, whereas Striker is a specialist and can probaly provide more knowledge. I'm wondering if the same system info on the HUD is generated the same way on the -15 in LOMAC.
Kev
Kev
Kevin Cummins, former USAF Viper crewchief
Just when you thought it was safe to get back in th' air...
...you find out that nuthin' bites like a Viper.
Just when you thought it was safe to get back in th' air...
...you find out that nuthin' bites like a Viper.
I see you found the answer, but yes - staggered separation L/R of centerline for each pilot and as far as touchdown point, for show purposes I'd say aiming point markers (and right now, I can't remember if Lock-On has these or not). Basically the same point that the ILS slope would take you to, which should be approx 1,000ft down the runway from threshold.Rock wrote:5)During the Landing where does each pilot touch down? We have been shooting for the centerline on the numbers but are not sure if that is correct?
LD
P.S. We sometimes have short landing competitions for fun and drag it in really low.
The shortest stop anyone has made is right on the middle of the second centerline stripe I believe. This is with realistic settings, clean loadout (just smoke gens) and 50% gas of course...-
Rock
- Virtual Thunderbird Alumnus
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:32 pm
- Location: Vancouver, BC
Hi guys! Have a couple more questions about the VTB SOPs.
6)In the Nellis Audio show and in the VTB 2005 we noticed that the pilot that joins the Diamond for the Five Card and Line Abreast Loop is the #6 pilot. But, in the 2006 show it is the #5 pilot who joins in. Just wondering why this is and if that is what the real world team is doing this year also?
7)What are the banks that lead is using for the Trail to Diamond Bottem up Pass, Diamond Pass in Review, Diamond 360 and the Delta Pass.
Thanks!
6)In the Nellis Audio show and in the VTB 2005 we noticed that the pilot that joins the Diamond for the Five Card and Line Abreast Loop is the #6 pilot. But, in the 2006 show it is the #5 pilot who joins in. Just wondering why this is and if that is what the real world team is doing this year also?
7)What are the banks that lead is using for the Trail to Diamond Bottem up Pass, Diamond Pass in Review, Diamond 360 and the Delta Pass.
Thanks!
The solos retain their "wing" throughout their entire 2-year tour on the team. If you start as 6 left profile, you'll fly 5 as a left profile the next season. Since 6 was a right solo in 2005, he should be a right solo (which implies 5-card, Line Break Loop and Hi-Lo Hit) even in 2006. This is subject to recent changes possibly, but that is the way it has been and as far as we know, still is to this date. The current SOP doc found in our files section reflects the proposed profiles for 2006 with 5 flying right profile and 6 flying the left solo profile.Rock wrote:6)In the Nellis Audio show and in the VTB 2005 we noticed that the pilot that joins the Diamond for the Five Card and Line Abreast Loop is the #6 pilot. But, in the 2006 show it is the #5 pilot who joins in. Just wondering why this is and if that is what the real world team is doing this year also?
Real life is very different from the virtual parameters. In real life the banks are steep and the G's are high (not unusual to see 80 deg of bank). We normally shoot for 45-55 degrees for flat passes (since the G required for a level turn is under 2G's any time you're banked less than 60 degrees), while the real team performs some of these at higher loads, as high as 4G's in the D360! That's not very online friendly for us, so due to that "Lock-On-ism" we shoot for any flat pass to have between 1.5 to 2.0G's from the PIR being the least aggressive (close formation) to the D360 having the most pull. That equals roughly 45 degrees for the PIR and BUP's and close to 60 degrees for the D360 in the pixelated skies.7)What are the banks that lead is using for the Trail to Diamond Bottem up Pass, Diamond Pass in Review, Diamond 360 and the Delta Pass.
Hope this helps!
LD
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Rock
- Virtual Thunderbird Alumnus
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:32 pm
- Location: Vancouver, BC
Very interesting on the solo positions Lawndart. I realized that each solo maintained a position on the team for 2 years but thought that the he would jump completely from one side to the other during the transition from 6 to 5. Thanks for clearing that one up!
Also very interesting on the bank degrees. I am at the point where I feel that I can probably fly the entire show as lead(not perfectly mind you lol) after having studied the show SOPs and mapping out the flight entries and exits. But, I wasn't sure about the degrees of bank for these manuevers which are very important from the crowd's perspective.
Thanks very much!!
Also very interesting on the bank degrees. I am at the point where I feel that I can probably fly the entire show as lead(not perfectly mind you lol) after having studied the show SOPs and mapping out the flight entries and exits. But, I wasn't sure about the degrees of bank for these manuevers which are very important from the crowd's perspective.
Thanks very much!!
In recent years the solos actually have made the switch from flying right to flying left profile when moving into the Lead Solo position from Opposing Solo, but that's mainly due to some significant changes that occured when the FAA banned any maneuvers with "force" towards the crowd and also following the Split S accident in late '03 which caused the Lead Solo (Tales) of that season to remain on the team an extra season, for a total of 3 years (flying a 2nd season as Lead Solo with the same profile). It remains to be seen if they'll keep it the way it's been since then with the "switcharoo" happening between seasons or go back to the way it has always been before where you inherited a profile from the solo that "retired" and kept that profile for your entire tenure on the team, whether you were Lead or Opposing Solo. Of the two solos, the newbie or first year pilot always starts out as Opposing Solo (#6) and as the only Thunderbird that switches positions during his/(her) 2-year tour on the team, moves into Lead Solo (#5) the following season. Regardless of this you always inherit the profile of the solo that retired for your full 2-year tour and those maneuvers that accompany that profile. BTW, for anyone else reading this, profile refers to your assigned wing (L/R) as well as the maneuves that go along with that side.
As far as bank angles and crowd perspective goes. We make up for some of the loss of the crowds perspective in how we fly our maneuvers by allowing the use of camera angles that wouldn't be possible in real life. There's a whole arsenal of views that can be used that wouldn't be possible in real life and not using them would be the same as not using all available resources we have that cannot be done at a real airshow; however, having said that there is one maneuver, the PIR (Pass in Review), that we're trying to perfect from a crowds perspective! This is the tightest maneuver of the show and consists of a R-L eliptical arc of the diamond at low altitude and flown as little as 18 inches apart. To get the correct perspective and have the diamond appear symmetrical from the ground, each pilot must maintain an "offset position" from the normal diamond position. From the crowd it looks just like the diamond, but in the air (if you placed a camera anywhere but in the crowd) it would look like every pilot was out of position and the diamond would not have its trademark, diamond shape either. #2 flies inside and underneath #1's missile rail instead of off to the side, #3 flies higher as opposed to a little below lead and also slightly spread (Tripple T or delta spread, which equals about 3 feet wide). Instead of having his missile rail lined up directly behind lead's missile rail, #3 would have his rail 3 feet (about the same distance as the blue, white and red stripes) wide of lead's rail. From the ground on the other hand, it does look like #2 and #3 both have their rails lined up directly behind to a little inside lead's rails. #4 flies the normal altitude and trail spacing used in slot, although offsets himself to the right of lead to fly underneath lead's elevator (blue, white and red stripe above his canopy instead of the burner can). When the formation is banked in a steep turn, this appearance looks like a perfectly shaped diamond from the crowd, although airborne it looks all bent out-of -shape!
The most important thing for "our way of flying" these maneuvers is that we need to consider lag, spiking and other limitations imposed by the game itself (network code etc). Trying to make it as smooth as possible for the wingmen if you're leading takes priority over making it look correct from the show line. What this means for us during the PIR is that we fly it around 45 degrees of bank for a nice 1.5G pull instead of 60-70 degrees as is used in real life with pulls in the 2G environment. The compromise of G, makes for a more stable platform considering all the above mentioned limitations we face as Virtual Thunderbirds!
LD
As far as bank angles and crowd perspective goes. We make up for some of the loss of the crowds perspective in how we fly our maneuvers by allowing the use of camera angles that wouldn't be possible in real life. There's a whole arsenal of views that can be used that wouldn't be possible in real life and not using them would be the same as not using all available resources we have that cannot be done at a real airshow; however, having said that there is one maneuver, the PIR (Pass in Review), that we're trying to perfect from a crowds perspective! This is the tightest maneuver of the show and consists of a R-L eliptical arc of the diamond at low altitude and flown as little as 18 inches apart. To get the correct perspective and have the diamond appear symmetrical from the ground, each pilot must maintain an "offset position" from the normal diamond position. From the crowd it looks just like the diamond, but in the air (if you placed a camera anywhere but in the crowd) it would look like every pilot was out of position and the diamond would not have its trademark, diamond shape either. #2 flies inside and underneath #1's missile rail instead of off to the side, #3 flies higher as opposed to a little below lead and also slightly spread (Tripple T or delta spread, which equals about 3 feet wide). Instead of having his missile rail lined up directly behind lead's missile rail, #3 would have his rail 3 feet (about the same distance as the blue, white and red stripes) wide of lead's rail. From the ground on the other hand, it does look like #2 and #3 both have their rails lined up directly behind to a little inside lead's rails. #4 flies the normal altitude and trail spacing used in slot, although offsets himself to the right of lead to fly underneath lead's elevator (blue, white and red stripe above his canopy instead of the burner can). When the formation is banked in a steep turn, this appearance looks like a perfectly shaped diamond from the crowd, although airborne it looks all bent out-of -shape!
The most important thing for "our way of flying" these maneuvers is that we need to consider lag, spiking and other limitations imposed by the game itself (network code etc). Trying to make it as smooth as possible for the wingmen if you're leading takes priority over making it look correct from the show line. What this means for us during the PIR is that we fly it around 45 degrees of bank for a nice 1.5G pull instead of 60-70 degrees as is used in real life with pulls in the 2G environment. The compromise of G, makes for a more stable platform considering all the above mentioned limitations we face as Virtual Thunderbirds!
LD
