How fast? This fast!

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:28 pm

Lawndart wrote:Think it was fast back then... try now.

Do tell... duration of roll now?

Post by **Lawndart** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:34 am

Let me first just start by saying this is not how we normally would do timing during the demo (since it's not based on how much time it takes for a maneuver to be flown, but rather from a specific point to another given point in the next maneuver).

Now, that being said...

I fired up our practice track from tonight's sortie (3rd High Show of the training season), and here are some numbers:

Diamond Roll: 397 KCAS, 2,400ft AGL apex......... 29.4 seconds from Smoke On till Smoke Off.
Diamond 360: 415 KCAS, 3.77Gs......................... 42.4 seconds from Overhead till Smoke Off.

(I dug up a YouTube video from the USAF Thunderbirds at Aviation Nation 2010 to benchmark and their numbers for the aformentioned maneuvers were 28.8 and 42.9 seconds, respectively).

Not only does this affirm that using actual parameters works in the sim, but I had no idea it would be that close!!!

Ells · Post by **Ells** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:52 am

Wow, that is darn close to their timings.

Screnshots on FB look awesome too, great job guys.

Post by **Teej** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:32 am

When I first made a comment about the D360, I was comparing "overhead to overhead"...which is a few seconds shorter than what LD is comparing.

By that measure, I believe I timed the VFAT '08 maneuver at :50, '09 at :45 and I was seeing :39-:40 on the current pulls.

Post by **Lawndart** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:28 am

I thought Beaker's "do tell" was to compare with others who've tried flying a Thunderbird demo.

Post by **Teej** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:48 am

Yeah...well...that too.

Still nice to see our own evolution.

Post by **Lawndart** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:54 am

I'm almost as impressed that our derived parameters from '09 were that close. Proof that math and an over-analytical approach works out to about the same even for a lower target G and airspeed.

Out of curiosity, what was that other number for the DR?

Post by **Teej** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:21 pm

As I recall...roughly :60 for a roll and over :90 for a D360.

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:19 pm

Lawndart wrote:I thought Beaker's "do tell" was to compare with others who've tried flying a Thunderbird demo.

Nah. Just curiosity! My question was directed more at the duration of actual roll rather than smoke on/off, but I can see from your smoke on/off timing that you're dead-on parameters... good to hear!

We've come to a similar place, where you can time things and realize they're nearly dead on without that intention... it just seems to happen! (Although the Blues demo isn't planned based on set times from maneuver to maneuver so rigidly as the Thunderbirds demo.)

Just made a quick note of our Diamond Roll times smoke on to smoke off... 33.8 seconds, compared to about 34 flat from the 2010 Pensacola Homecoming show. The duration of our roll was about 16 seconds, more or less identical to the real Blues' 16 seconds.

I saw about 15 seconds for the entire Thunderbird Diamond Roll in that Aviation Nation show, although it's a little tricky to get a precise time with the "slowing" end to the Thunderbird's style of the maneuver (without comm, at least.)

Post by **Lawndart** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:34 pm

What is the Blues' target pitch angle for roll movement and how high AGL is the Diamond Roll's apex?

No doubt the Blues show is slower (by design), but it's an interesting topic of discussion.

Rhino · Post by **Rhino** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:45 pm

Lawndart wrote:What is the Blues' target pitch angle for roll movement and how high AGL is the Diamond Roll's apex?

No doubt the Blues show is slower (by design), but it's an interesting topic of discussion.

Roll starts at 1500ft AGL, apex at 3500ft AGL. Pitch is usually ~20-25 degrees at the start.

Fun fact, the profile for the Diamond Roll is completely different than those of the Delta/Left Echelon Roll.

Post by **Lawndart** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:04 pm

I couldn't even tell you (without looking at a tape) at what altitude our Diamond Roll starts (entry at 300 AGL - no idea when actual roll movement begins as this is not a parameter I look for), but it's rather targetted at 15 degrees of pitch attitude with the proper amount of G. Apex should be 2,300ft AGL. Our Delta Roll use numbers closer to your Diamond Roll (22 deg pitch angle, apex 2,800ft AGL).

That coupled with an entry target airspeed of 415 knots for the Thunderbirds makes for flatter and faster rolls than the Blue Angels.

It sounds like you've managed to match the real Blues closely though!

Do they use speed brakes (or boards as you'd call 'em) during all rolls or just a select few?

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:56 pm

I wouldn't imagine it's a parameter you account for in the air! And no... No speed brakes on any rolls, including the Barrel Roll Break.

Post by **Lawndart** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:09 pm

Re-opening this topic of timing (to some peoples disgust I'm sure)...

Recently flew a High Show that took only 27 seconds longer across the real team's benchmark for their entire show sequence. If nothing else, I'm sure Boss Bon and Boss Rock might appreciate how tight that actually is when you're in the cockpit.

To put that into perspective, less than half a minute "overtime" spanning a total of 39 maneuvers is less than a second per pass in error. (Now, if only the splits would've been _that_ precise too).

Just thought it was a noteworthy milestone.

Post by **Ray** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:57 pm

That is pretty impressive

. I knew the turnaround and show felt faster last practice. I like it.