Using the trim

Bow · Post by **Bow** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:35 am

1. Do you use the trim?
2. If so, how do you use it correctly?
3. Can I put the trim on the stick? ( I have Cougar).

Post by **Gunner** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:51 am

Just as the real Thunderbirds, we fly with full nose down trim when in formation with the exception of takeoff and the Bon-Ton Roll. If you download our Foxy profile from our files section, you will see it mapped to the stick. We do not use the LOMAC trim.
Using forward trim allows you to be much more precise because you have constant pull in one direction, and you avoid that dead area in the middle. For those of us with the FSSB mod, it really makes a difference because we rarely have to push forward, we can just release back pressure.

Burner · Post by **Burner** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:51 am

Always use the search function, our forum has answered many questions about virtual formation aerobatics.

viewtopic.php?t=2253&highlight=trim

Bow · Post by **Bow** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:42 am

I did search this first but Im still a little unsure. I have a stock Cougar, now I really don't understand how to get your profile into Foxy... this stick is confusing to those who are not computer savy...

So, my question is... do I need to move files around to get your profile to work or do I type in what you guys have? I don't know what the heck I'm doing...

Is using the direct X just as good as emulation? and the button code I have no idea what that is or how to do it?
I really need someone to physically show me, then I would be ok... but that's not gonna happen.

Well, any info would be appreciated!

Burner · Post by **Burner** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:37 pm

Read the instructions that came with the Cougar, visit Frugal's Cougar world for IN DEPTH instructions and profiles as well as an active forum.

http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/index.php

Bow · Post by **Bow** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:18 pm

Forget it, I don't have the time for all that. Gonna ditch this and get a CH fighter - less hassle. Thanxs anyway

Reading the instructions I feel like I'm reading russian... You have to understand some people don't have the training you might or knowledge of computers like you do...

Anyone want to buy a hardly used Cougar...?

Post by **Lawndart** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:00 pm

Travo357,

What Burner is implying is that many people today don't even open their manuals or begin to search for the information themselves before asking to get spoon fed by someone. I'm not suggesting that's what you were trying to do. Sorry if you were put off by some of the replies.

Cougar World has pretty much all the info you need. Here are some more useful links for your new Cougar that we recently posted in our Mother of all Stickies thread. You can keep the Kitty manual in its shrink wrap if you prefer and not bother learning the logical programming (that is perfectly fine), yet take advantage of the programming offered through Foxy made by others. You will need to learn how to use "emulation on/off" and also how to "download" these profiles to the flash memory in the stick though. This isn't very hard to do, as there are tutorials built into Foxy teaching you the basics of how the program works. In essence all you really need to do is download the profile you want (ex. our aerobatic flying profile for Foxy found at our files page), open the profile (.tmj) with Foxy and then hit "Download" from the menu. This will write the profile to your stick's memory. Once it's there, all you need to do is turn on emulation (via HOTAS CCP) and your stick will use the logical programming offered in this profile.

Our package comes with three files used by your Cougar:

.tmj = joystick logical programming file (Foxy)
.tmm = joystick macro file (Foxy)
.tmc = joystick curves file (HOTAS CCP)

The .tmj and .tmm files go hand-in-hand and are loaded with Foxy; however, once "downloaded" to the stick, you don't need them anymore, unless to re-load the programming. Turning the computer off won't make your Kitty lose the programming, as it remains in the solid state memory onboard the Cougar after download.

The .tmc file is opened with HOTAS CCP and contains the axis profiles (curves) for your joystick.

Both Foxy and HCCP can be found under your start menu folder for your Cougar.

Once you figure out these rather easy steps of where each file goes and how to open them, using an already existing profile isn't hard to apply at all. We've already done the programming part for you, and provided the Foxy profile from our site. All you need to do is "download it" to your joystick, activate emulation (instead of direct input) and off you go!

If you don't have time for (learning) all that, then (and I'm just being honest with you), you won't find much sympathy in the forums; however, if you need guidance feel free to stop by our Ventrilo server and someone can walk you through where to put these files and how to load them up in your Cougar.

Running your Cougar as a Direct X device makes your joystick a 28-button input device vs. using logical programming (Foxy), and you can have any button do multiple keystrokes, delays and limitless combinations of things. You can turn a simple keyboard button into a hold/release switch or toggle switch, even though the button alone doesn't offer this functionality to begin with. While our aerobatic profile is quite simple (a good thing for aerobatic flying), you will find some things in it that couldn't be done with a "normal" joystick, one of them being the trim which artificially moves the centerpoint for the y-axis (pitch) aft on the stick, so that you need to constantly pull in order to fly straight & level.

LockOn has trim too, but through experience we've found it to be too imprecise for what we need.

Hope this helps!

Bow · Post by **Bow** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:29 am

I know you guys get a lot of questions that seem the same just phrased different... I'm registered on Cougar World and I have gone on a lot of different forums, but to suggest reading the manual, like I'm some dumb kid is a bit rude. What do think I did, why I was aking for help.

Mr. Burner has no obligation to answer my question if he doesn't want to and I dont expect to be spoon fed. I'm a verteran of the United States Navy. I served on the flight deck of the USS Enterprise on the waist cats and was a part of Operation Southern Watch, Operation Joint Endevour. How about you come and try to work on some steam catapults. If I handed you that manual do you think you would know exactly what needs to be done and how? Probably not , so how about a litlle respect for someone who put his ass on the flight line for the country you live in...

Lawndart,
Thank you for your time and what you said was all I needed to hear. I was having trouble downloading the profile. It's very easy to do things wrong in computers. Easy things to you are not so easy to me, but you learn as you go... I'm telling you I went all over the comunity trying to get hints and get the stick to work better... I appreciate your professionalism and as a VTB fan I look to you for advice thats all. I didn't feel what I was asking was that big a deal. Thanxs for the help Lawndart.

Post by **Lawndart** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:07 am

You live and learn. I had no idea you served our country. My hats off to you for that!

It's hard to convey things the way they are intended sometimes, simply through a post between two "strangers" in a forum. I think what goes to show is that forums typically relay someone's tone very poorly, and things easily get misinterpreted (especially sarcasm, but that's a different story). In this case, you're right... To some degree it's frowned upon to not do at least some legwork before asking questions that may have been answered hundreds of times before or found in some sticky at the top of a forum, but one can never assume that wasn't already done. It's also easy to take something written in a forum the wrong way. I sincerely don't think Burner meant anything he said in a negative way, rather than just using his lunch break (or office hours?!) to point you in the right direction (without any "fluff"). Either way, jump into Ventrilo and someone (Burner?

) can guide you through the setup in no time if you're still stumbling.

BTW, in the link: Cougar World: New owner? Start here... (Getting started with your Cougar) there's a link at the bottom that takes you to --->
A first introduction to Foxy with plenty of illustrations. Check it out. I think it will help you quite a bit to get your Kitty programmed!

Bow · Post by **Bow** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:45 am

Ya I'm sure it's easy to take things out of context and you really can't read what is felt behind the writing... Out of most of the forums you guys always seem to give me some better detailed answers and can put things in laymans terms for us computer retarded users. Trust me, I understand it's hard to help people that don't get it... I work on private jets and you would be amazed at some of things pilots ask...... Like how many pounds is 150 gallons (1000). I mean they're supposed to know that right. Do I want to sit there and do it? No not really, but I'd rather get him to understand than have him ask me the same questions over and over. I apologize if I misinterperted his comments, but like you say it's pretty common thing in the forums. Sorry for the confusion.

Cinch · Post by **Cinch** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:03 pm

Well, all I can say is that, I spent my time on deck (CV60 and CVN69). I know what is like to work the decks in the heat and cold, plus the smell of JP4 back in the day (now JP8), but that was the reason why I worked the deck!!! FRESH AIR!!!!!! LOL

If you need some help I will be more than glad to help you out with your Cougar. Just send me a PM and let me know a good time!

Cinch

Cobra · Post by **Cobra** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:08 pm

you would be amazed at some of things pilots ask...... Like how many pounds is 150 gallons (1000). I mean they're supposed to know that right.

Not really. When pilots order fuel, they are only interested in the weight of it, not the volume. They know what weight of fuel the fuel tanks hold, but generally have little idea of how many gallons or litres it is.

Fuel flow is measured in LBS/hr or KGS/hr, not litres or pints. I know I can order up to 109,000 kgs in a A330-200, I can only approximate what that is in litres and even that can vary due to changes in specific gravity due to temperature.

Bottom line is that pilots are generally only interested in the weight of the fuel. (unless they are paying for it I guess!

)

Post by **Lawndart** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:59 pm

I was thinking the same thing when I first read that part...

Normal JET A weighs ~6.7 lbs/gal. Other fuels with different density weigh out different, but range from about 6.4 lbs to 6.8lbs/gal roughly. Now, I had to dig deep into my brain and several years back to try to remember that (just like Cobra said, when we order fuel, it's in weight and not volume).

I would be that pilot asking!

Bow · Post by **Bow** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:42 am

You are very right. I did know they always go by weight. I work with G550's, G4's Westwinds Learjets, so the numbers are not quite as big, but I just prep the plane and fuel it and tow it. I take care of Bill Cosby's G4 and the pilot Clarence is funny guy... he never knows how much to put in. I had a few pilots be completely off and when you over fill, especially with single point nozzles the fuel goes into an overflow valve and vents right out of the plane. As you know fuel expands in heat so I had about 20 gallons of fuel to clean up. It suxs using the absorbant. I see there view as you may now see my veiw. Lawndart, I laughed for a few minutes on your last comment! LOL

Post by **Lawndart** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:35 pm

I just realized a fundamental answer to trim usage hasn't been addressed yet...

A Trim Tab (controlled either by a trim wheel, rocker switch or coolie hat on or nearby the yoke, stick or wheel) is normally used to balance the elevator load to reduce or eliminate control pressures all together. An aircraft is trimmed for a certain speed (i.e. aerodynamic load). If you accelerate there would be a tendency for the nose to want to come up, unless you hold forward stick pressure. To alleviate this, you'd trim out the force you're holding (forward stick in this case) on the aircraft for "hands off" flight by using the trim tab on the control surface.

Some aircraft, including the F-15 in LockOn have an auto-trim function that constantly re-trims the aircraft, so that neutral stick maintains the aircraft attitude regardless of your speed. If you try flying one of the Russian birds in LockOn you'll see what effect trim really has on an airplane and how the nose movement behaves differently at different speeds, unless you trim of course.

Now, to the aerobatic aspect of it: If the purpose of trim is to reduce or completely eliminate control pressures, so that you can fly the aircraft "hands off" - when it comes to aerobatics you actually want some "positive feedback". What this means is you want to feel like you're "pulling against something" at all times, regardless of speed. Therefore negative or nose-down trim is used, and contrary to the purpose of trim, we introduce it to create more of a "hands on" the stick instead of its intent, hands off. This effectively gets rid of the mushy and light control pressures that would otherwise exist near the center of the joystick, especially in slow speed flight (ex. over the top of a loop).

When it comes to the F-15 flight model in LockOn, seeing as it auto-trims the aircraft for varying speed (aerodynamic load), what the trim does is allow you to add nose up/downward movement with the trim that you don't need to hold with the joystick yourself. You could enter a turn, trim the aircraft and not have to hold your stick back to remain in level flight as you're in that turn, meanwhile the auto-trim adjusts for various airspeeds should you accelerate or decelerate.

It's already been explained how we (as Virtual Thunderbirds) use this feature on the Cougar, by artificially moving the center point of the pitch axis (in Foxy) - thereby trimming the airplane nose-down right from the get go, so we constantly have to hold back pressure ("hands on").

Back to basics for a second: What they teach you in flight school is to not fly the airplane with trim, but trim after you've maneuvered to allow for "hands off" flight. In other words, stick first - trim secondly. It's bad practice to fly the airplane using trim alone. The same rule applies in aerobatics, except trim is introduced first and then you "forget about it", meaning you still fly the airplane with the stick (not the trim), but you don't re-trim it so that you always have to keep positive control pressure on the stick, regardless of airspeed and/or the maneuver.

Even with a constant nose-down pressure you have to hold against, there are different pressures depending on your airspeed, however, the main idea for aerobatics contrary to normal trim usage is that you're always pulling back on the stick even if you want the nose to come forward (it just means less back pressure).

Hope this helps!