A couple questions here??

Ok, if I'm flying right wing, I noticed that in right flat turns I can't seem to stick in position as we roll out... Do I give some left rudder as I rollout? and push nose down? or stop pulling once we begin rollout?

Also, what is the max throttle setting. 90% or more? I'm trying to set my Cougar throttle detent to hit at 90%. I think that's what you guys said you were at. I could be wrong...

travo357 wrote:Ok, if I'm flying right wing, I noticed that in right flat turns I can't seem to stick in position as we roll out... Do I give some left rudder as I rollout? and push nose down? or stop pulling once we begin rollout?

You're in a right turn and the Leader rolls out to level: You'll need to pull to remain on his wing (keep his missile rail pointing at the back of his canopy) and adjust your throttle to remain at a steady fore/aft (little power up initially, then power back some) and "over roll" slightly and/or use a tiny bit of left rudder. In general you'll want to stay away from your rudders to any extent, for all but faster roll rates and then it becomes a well balanced act (technique), how much rudder is bled in and also when.

Whether the Leader is in a turn, flying level, entering a turn or exiting a turn, the following basic principle applies: 1). If the Leader rolls away from you, regardless of direction (or whichever wing you're on), you need more power initially, more pull and a slight over roll. Remember that you stay on his wing with back pressure (pull/ease forward), not your roll input primarily. 2). If the Leader rolls into you, regardless of direction (or whichever wing you're on), you need less power initially, easing forward on the stick and just enough roll to avoid the Leader rolling into you (getting bigger). Again, remember that the key to staying on his wing is the correct amount of back pressure (pull/ease forward), not your roll input. Keep that missile rail pointing at the back of his canopy with just enough amount of pack pressure no matter what, the rest will follow...

Back pressure (pull/ease forward) maintains your wing position, roll controls your spacing (laterally), and the throttle controls your fore/aft.

travo357 wrote:Also, what is the max throttle setting. 90% or more? I'm trying to set my Cougar throttle detent to hit at 90%. I think that's what you guys said you were at. I could be wrong...

Max setting is Full AB (only the Solos use this). The power settings we use in formation range between 85-98% (with anything above 91-92% only for major power ups; takeoff and the High/Low Hit exit).

To answer what you need to know: Set your detent away from the 80-95% range. I have mine set at 95% and the other at 100%. This way I have unrestricted throttle movement for all formation power settings (80-95%), minus takeoff and I also know exactly where my Full MIL setting is, before hitting the burners.

Note: To set your detent you'll need to open your Cougar throttle and play with the detent using a screw driver while running LockOn all at the same time to test the exact rpm to where the detent(s) hit.

Aye roger that... I have one set at idle and one set on 100%, go past that and it's burners. I like the detent cause then I know where I'm at in the power setting so I don't go too far back or too much power. I should set the first indent at 80% and the second on 95%. You don't use rudders at all why not?? or you just know when to use them. I find that not using them I can't keep my nose pointed exactly as the lead... is this wrong idea?

Ya, I think what I'm doing is holding the set G/pull during rollout... and maybe letting off the power and getting way spaced to the right. Ok, I see where your going with this... awsome. Thanxs, thats why I'm always above and right of lead when rolling out to level. I see what im doing wrong. I can hold it until rolling level and then I lose it. Nice lesson.

You know I noticed that all you have to do is show some respect and you guys pretty much will do whatever you can to help anyone. Some people should take a lesson on this... Thank you for your help Lawndart... it was nice chatting with you on Vent too the other night. Thanxs again!

Another question.., I noticed whenever I make any movement be it pitch, roll or yaw, it bleeds some speed off. Do you tend to want to power up a bit during these movements.

Like in a turn, you roll then pull and the G's slow the aircraft down, so I power up just enough to stay steady (which is really hard) and then back down so I don't overtake the lead. To master the throttle and hold position like the way you guys do, I don't know how you do it so perfect, but I keep trying... maybe send you a screenshot next time.

travo357 wrote:I should set the first indent at 80% and the second on 95%.

I wouldn't use them as a crutch at all. Learn the muscle memory of where your hand needs to be instead, and you're right about one thing you mentioned later on; you always move your throttle hand constantly to stay in position. If you really break it down there are many factors at work here, but in general any time you're on the outside of a turn (Lead rolling away from you), you need more power. Secondly, any time there's more pull used (whether because of Lead or yourself correcting), you need more power. Therefore, when your stick hand moves back, you almost certainly need to move your throttle hand forward and vice versa. The key to learning this is not over-thinking it. Just try to be conscious about always moving your throttle hand in small amounts and know that any time you maneuver the jet (stick hand) you'll need a corresponding throttle adjustment of some sort. It's one of those things, that needs to be learned "hands on" to develop motorskills, while it really doesn't do much good to dissect what to do in writing or cognitively too much. It's a very dynamic and fluid situation.

travo357 wrote:You don't use rudders at all why not?? or you just know when to use them. I find that not using them I can't keep my nose pointed exactly as the lead... is this wrong idea?

No, we do use rudders, but we tell new guys starting out to stay away from them. It will hurt you if you start relying on rudders. I can fly almost the entire show with my feet on the floor, but I can make it look better by using the proper amount of rudder. Learn to maneuver the jet with your stick only first, then once you can "hang", try finessing your appearance to enhance the look of the formation with rudders. You don't need rudders to stay in formation!

travo357 wrote:You know I noticed that all you have to do is show some respect and you guys pretty much will do whatever you can to help anyone. Some people should take a lesson on this... Thank you for your help Lawndart... it was nice chatting with you on Vent too the other night. Thanxs again!

True. We don't demand anything, but appreciate posts that are constructive to the forums rather than trying to act immature and say things no one would ever say IRL to someone's face. Thanks for your comments!

travo357 wrote:Another question.., I noticed whenever I make any movement be it pitch, roll or yaw, it bleeds some speed off. Do you tend to want to power up a bit during these movements.

There are many factors at work here, and what I wrote above applies about throttle always being adjusted any time you have other control inputs. Secondly, you never fly the same path through the sky as the Leader, which means when he rolls he rolls about his longitudinal axis, while you need to "fly his wing" (i.e. not a pure roll). When he's in a turn or loop, your offset (lateral and stack) from his axis' means you fly a slightly larger path through the sky, which again means a different power setting than Lead. The only time your nose and your power could be pointing in the same direction is in 1G flight, straight and level. As soon as any maneuvering is introduced, your only job is to maintain your sight picture using whatever necessary control inputs to stay on his wing. At that point, it doesn't matter if your nose is aligned perfectly or that you know his speed/rpm. Those are all irrelevant, because your nose cannot be perfectly aligned if you're to stay in formation and knowing his parameters is a moot point, because your own will be different. It's all about sight picture and muscle memory!!!

I noticed you guys removed the sight picture you're often referring to. Will they be back soon on the library or is it over!

This was very helpful for new pilot, and still helpful as we fly the f16 in our show.

Thanks!

They won't all be back any time soon if ever, since we've changed our own Ops Manual and its contents around. There are too many Thunderbird specific references to be of any real usefulness to others; however, you bring up a good point - so I went ahead and added the "Normal Diamond" sight pictures in this new sticky. This will help new comers and pilots wishing to fly our Phantom Server by providing them with the appropriate visual references to fly wing. Since, flying wing is the only basic flying criteria for joining the team, this gives all recruits with what they need to see (and maintain), throughout maneuvering flight.

Thanxs Lawndart,
I saw much improvement in my flying by not using the rudders too much... Your right, you can do with out them at times. Thanxs for the visuals that really helps out. If you're not sure of your position. I never knew those points to look at. Thanxs!