Newbie Question: Flaps , Trim, Profile, Padlock

[pedrosura]

VTB Experts,

I have tried to find additional information in the forums on these issues but I hope someone can give me the answer I'm looking for:

1)The aircraft are flown with flaps down. Why? Is is to give the right L/D or enough drag? Haven't read the reason for it, just that it's done. What does it do?

2)Read that the aircraft are configured with trim down for when flying in formation at high speed. Is the setup to put in a lot of nose down trim in a preset fashion. If so how much. I have the HOTAS Cougar. Can someone point me on how to do that. I understand that using pitch trim during flight is not done b/c it's not compatible with formation flying.

3)Is there anywhere a graphical description of the maneuvers book, manual, recommended video to understand the manual I can purshase or get from seomwhere. I have looked though the manual in the website but it seems that I have to have something else to understand it.

4)For the team members with Track Ir: Do you switch from Track Ir to padlock on boss as you join or separate? I appreciate how padlock is more stable but I can see how going to track ir when you are not right next to the formation aircraft can be useful.

Congratulations to the team. You are doing one of the most exciting virtual gaming applications I can imagine. Real life pilot and simmer for over 20 years. I trully admire passion and dedication. I'm learning and practicing to try in '07. Any help is appreciated. Thank you...

[Lawndart]

1)The aircraft are flown with flaps down. Why? Is it to give the right L/D or enough drag? Haven't read the reason for it, just that it's done. What does it do?

Simply for the added drag factor in the sim and added friction to counteract power changes (throttle movement). In real life the flaps are auto, but since we're flying an F-15 flight model (not a true F-16) first of all and secondly it has no auto setting, we set the flaps down. Even though the flaps in-game are BUP (bottom up panels), that retract with higher airspeed, I'm not sure it's truly simulated in Lock-On. Either way, flying without them would be a lot harder, since even at idle turbine speeds we would pick up a lot of smash downhill in the whiffers and the wingmen would have a much smaller throttle range to work with to remain in formation.

2)Read that the aircraft are configured with trim down for when flying in formation at high speed. Is the setup to put in a lot of nose down trim in a preset fashion. If so how much. I have the HOTAS Cougar. Can someone point me on how to do that. I understand that using pitch trim during flight is not done b/c it's not compatible with formation flying.

We use a preset value via Foxy to engage trim. Essentially altering the Y-axis centerpoint with the click of a button on the Cougar. Download the Cougar profile from our site and try it out. I don't have time right now to go into detail how it works, but we stay completely away from the trim in Lock-On. In real life the aerobatic teams use a lot of nose down trim 20-35lbs of force on the stick (hence, why these guys' forearms look like Popeye...). The reason being mainly to get rid of any deadstick or centerplay, especially at the top of a loop where the deeper you are in the formation the less G you're pulling. Outer wings in a Delta may even be floating in their straps, but with the trim they still maintain a positive backpressure on the stick for easier control of the jet.

3)Is there anywhere a graphical description of the maneuvers book, manual, recommended video to understand the manual I can purchase or get from somewhere. I have looked though the manual in the website but it seems that I have to have something else to understand it.

At this time not from us. Check out the DVD and book recommendations sticky in the Flightline. That's your best resource!

4)For the team members with Track Ir: Do you switch from Track Ir to padlock on boss as you join or separate? I appreciate how padlock is more stable but I can see how going to track ir when you are not right next to the formation aircraft can be useful.

While only a few members use TIR, I'll sum it up as follows: Whenever close enough to visually rejoin and anytime in formation, padlock is engaged. As soon as you break off (with the exception of a momentary split like the Hi-Lo Hit) we disengage padlock and use either the views provided in game or TIR if the pilot has one. TIR's only true benefit in is situational awareness when not in formation, so as far as the formation flying aspect of it goes, we don't use it nor recommend using it. Once clear of formation it's a wonderful tool!

Why wait till '07 to take a test drive? ...also, what do you fly IRL?

LD

P.S. I'll be away for the rest of the weekend if I don't get back to you again on any other questions or replies...

[pedrosura]

Lawndart,

There it is. That is the explanation I was looking for. Also, I'm going to get some DVDs and try to make sense of the manual on the site.

I am saying that I'll try in '07 because I have seen you videos and I know the amount of practice it'll take for me feel that I'm ready to try. I don't show up to checkrides unless I'm overprepared. I've never failed a checkride and I'll do everything in my power so that I'll never.

In real life I am a Captain on a Hawker 800 (just finished my first 1000 hrs as a Captain on it). Before that, most of my time was in the very Jurassic Metroliner III aircraft. (The Sewerpipe)

Looking forward to continue learning and improving. Just got the Cougar (what a joystick!). I know that eventually I'll be right there. I love the irony that I can come home from a long trip and I still get on the computer and fly. The desire never dies.


BTW, I am a big fan and I think that what you are doing is just awesome. Thank you for you time!

[BonJobie]

Pedrosura, my recommendation and invitation is that when you get the necessary things downloaded come in and fly with us some night. We have an open invitation for anyone who would like to fly or watch us practice. Although we are obviously taking note of a pilot's abilities anytime someone new flies with us I wouldn't want you to think it is a checkride. I have them every 6 months myself and I wouldn't want anyone else to feel that they are having them more than is required by law! The only way to see where you actually stand is to come in some night and fly with us. No pressure, really. We don't bite. Right now we are kind of on hiatus due to everyone's summer vacations, but check on Ventrilo from time to time and see if we are on, typically in the evening during the week around 2400 EST/2100PST. And this invitation is to all: we are constantly looking for pilots to fill out our team, so everyone gear up and see if you have what it takes!

Bon

[pedrosura]

Hi Bon,

Thank you for the hospitality. I'll definitely take you up on that. Which ventrilo channell should I monitor, Open Tryout? Also, which Hyperlobby game or server do you use. Pardon my ignorance, I'm just trying to learn many things at once. I got the impression that non-team members would not be able to get access to practices. Thank you for your encouraging words. P

[pedrosura]

Hi Lawndart,

We use a preset value via Foxy to engage trim. Essentially altering the Y-axis centerpoint with the click of a button on the Cougar. Download the Cougar profile from our site and try it out. I don't have time right now to go into detail how it works, but we stay completely away from the trim in Lock-On. In real life the aerobatic teams use a lot of nose down trim 20-35lbs of force on the stick (hence, why these guys' forearms look like Popeye...). The reason being mainly to get rid of any deadstick or centerplay, especially at the top of a loop where the deeper you are in the formation the less G you're pulling. Outer wings in a Delta may even be floating in their straps, but with the trim they still maintain a positive backpressure on the stick for easier control of the jet..

When do you engage pitch trim....After takeoff at a certain airspeed?. The Cougar is awesome, I can't wait to master it and fly with you guys. Just ordered a few DVDs I'll be practicing and learning with AI and then joining you folks. Thank you for you input. P

[Lawndart]

When do you engage pitch trim....After takeoff at a certain airspeed?

At Boss's command, typically in the first corner after takeoff and the airspeed around 200-250 knots. We also disengage trim for the Bon-Ton Roulle on the "Go Spread" command and reapply it on the "Trim Set" command that follows the maneuver. Finally, during the High Bomb Burst trim is once again disengaged and kept off until landing. For the Solos it's a little more complicated given the type of formations and amount of rejoins between having your hair on fire and flying in a steady formation (as I would do in #6 quite a bit being the right solo, in the 5-ship formations as well). Counting off the top of my head I probably trim/untrim a good 10 times during a show profile...

LD

[pedrosura]

Thank you Lawdart,

I have read thought the manual a few times. When it says show center L,R or behind is that where the formation comes from or a fictitious center set at a certain place left right or behind the center? Also, is the crowd seating to look North?. Sorry for the ignorant question. Also, is the show program reflecting a real show for a particular year or has the show not changed say in the last few years. I'm waiting for Reach for the Skies and I hope everything will make sense then. Thank you for your time. P

[Lawndart]

All good questions again...

L/R/Behind refers to the direction the jet(s) are coming from or inbound from with reference to show center. Where the crowd is facing is irrelevant, but on our home filed the crowd is looking at a heading of 194 degrees when facing the runway. The show program is the current "high show" profile flown by the Thunderbirds (with the only exception being that 5's profile is 6's and vice versa, left vs. right solo profile). Reach for the Sky was produced in 2000, so some of the maneuvers are different. Namely, the Wing Walk in lieu of the High Alpha Pass and the Delta Clover Loop with the Blue Out (wow, that was a lot to say) instead of the Delta Loop (straight) with the Blue Out. Also, the Crossover Break by the Solos was towards the crowd instead of away from the crowd. I believe the rest of the show is the same. What prompted the changes was the FAA "banning" any maneuvers with "force" towards the crowd between the '01 and '02 seasons and that caused the Thunderbirds to re-write their show profile to some degree. Reach for the Sky (especially the bonus feature including the Nellis air show) is still a very accurate resource and correctly represents 90% of the High Show seen today!

LD

[pedrosura]

1)Does the Boss fly without trimming (Cougar) engaged

2)When executing maneuvers with references to pitch/ bank angles or inverted do you do them with the HUD snap view engaged? Do you de-activate trimming just prior to it?

3)After solos fly by each other how do they re-establish visual, Padlock? Where or how do you look when rejoining. How do you plan the closing speed?

4)When on the loops are the speedbrakes engaged down and up

5)About formation figures. Is the difference between the clover and straight loop a 90 deg turn. What does it mean "pass in review" Delta or Diamond.

[Lawndart]

1)Does the Boss fly without trimming (Cougar) engaged

Both yes and no. More depending on preference and technique than as a rule. Bon likes to fly trimmed, but he also uses the NXT mod which is very "forgiving" for leading with trim engaged.

2)When executing maneuvers with references to pitch/ bank angles or inverted do you do them with the HUD snap view engaged? Do you de-activate trimming just prior to it?

Could you elaborate what you mean? 19 times out of 20 the wingmen in the formation strictly look at Boss (you get used to flying starring at a missile rail the entire time and we seldom disengage trim)! Solos require a much lengthier answer, so I'll let you clarify what you were looking for first.

3)After solos fly by each other how do they re-establish visual, Padlock? Where or how do you look when rejoining. How do you plan the closing speed?

The way the show is designed the Solos don't need to tally one another after an Opposing maneuver. In general when rejoining we know within a 10 degree section or bearing where the other guy(s) are supposed to be and just tally and start lead pursuit. The closing speed for rejoins is half on the shoulders of the (element) Lead by "contract" and the other half falls on the ability and capability of the pilot rejoining, but as a rule of thumb 100-150 knots closure when inside a mile. If you were asking about the closure for Opposing work (Solos), then it's based on timing (hack) and then callout checkpoints. The closing speed is 900 knots +/- corrections by the Opposing Solo. Mostly after having done it so many times, it's the "Zen" that makes it work! Of course there are simple math corrections you can apply based on the checkpoint and if you heard the call a second early or late. And if all else fails, the F10 view can get you out of trouble...

4)When on the loops are the speedbrakes engaged down and up

Never! We used speedbrakes for a while during 2005, but the only time you'll see speedbrakes nowadays, just like the real Thunderbirds is during the Hi-Lo Hit when the Diamond is configured dirty and secondly, during one or two setup turns for maneuvers (not in front of the crowd and smoke off).

5)About formation figures. Is the difference between the clover and straight loop a 90 deg turn. What does it mean "pass in review" Delta or Diamond.

The clover is short for clover leaf and you're absolutely right. It's a 90 degree turn at the top of the loop to finish the loop perpendicular to the entry heading and in our case along the runway.

The PIR is the picture shot fly-by of the Diamond with the top of the planes towards the crowd. Also, the tightest formation flown and slightly offset (I feel another question...).

The Delta "Pass in Review" is referred to as the Delta BUP or "bottom up pass" since the jets have their belly towards the crowd.

Cheers!
LD

[pedrosura]

1)Does the Boss fly without trimming (Cougar) engaged

Both yes and no. More depending on preference and technique than as a rule. Bon likes to fly trimmed, but he also uses the NXT mod which is very "forgiving" for leading with trim engaged.

What is the NXT mod. Only used by Boss?

2)When executing maneuvers with references to pitch/ bank angles or inverted do you do them with the HUD snap view engaged? Do you de-activate trimming just prior to it?

Could you elaborate what you mean? 19 times out of 20 the wingmen in the formation strictly look at Boss (you get used to flying starring at a missile rail the entire time and we seldom disengage trim)! Solos require a much lengthier answer, so I'll let you clarify what you were looking for first.

You are about to break away from the formation so staying padlock on boss doesn't make sense? In other words, when do you use Hud snap. Do you need it to be precise when making a certain turn, pitch, bank or pull and breaking away or flying by yourself?

3)After solos fly by each other how do they re-establish visual, Padlock? Where or how do you look when rejoining. How do you plan the closing speed?

The way the show is designed the Solos don't need to tally one another after an Opposing maneuver. In general when rejoining we know within a 10 degree section or bearing where the other guy(s) are supposed to be and just tally and start lead pursuit. The closing speed for rejoins is half on the shoulders of the (element) Lead by "contract" and the other half falls on the ability and capability of the pilot rejoining, but as a rule of thumb 100-150 knots closure when inside a mile. If you were asking about the closure for Opposing work (Solos), then it's based on timing (hack) and then callout checkpoints. The closing speed is 900 knots +/- corrections by the Opposing Solo. Mostly after having done it so many times, it's the "Zen" that makes it work! Of course there are simple math corrections you can apply based on the checkpoint and if you heard the call a second early or late. And if all else fails, the F10 view can get you out of trouble...

My question was closure for rejoining the formation. Do you use Spedbrakes to kill the 100 knots difference

4)When on the loops are the speedbrakes engaged down and up

Never! We used speedbrakes for a while during 2005, but the only time you'll see speedbrakes nowadays, just like the real Thunderbirds is during the Hi-Lo Hit when the Diamond is configured dirty and secondly, during one or two setup turns for maneuvers (not in front of the crowd and smoke off).

The video had speedbrakes on the descent on some of the shots. Thank you for clarifying.

5)About formation figures. Is the difference between the clover and straight loop a 90 deg turn. What does it mean "pass in review" Delta or Diamond.

The clover is short for clover leaf and you're absolutely right. It's a 90 degree turn at the top of the loop to finish the loop perpendicular to the entry heading and in our case along the runway.

The PIR is the picture shot fly-by of the Diamond with the top of the planes towards the crowd. Also, the tightest formation flown and slightly offset (I feel another question...).

The Delta "Pass in Review" is referred to as the Delta BUP or "bottom up pass" since the jets have their belly towards the crowd.

Offset to look right from the crowd? Thank you. I am starting to undertand the manual. P
Cheers!
LD

[Lawndart]

Hard post to quote, since it was quoted, double-quoted and then triple quoted...

Ok, the NXT is a mod for the Cougar. Go to our links page and surf over to Cougar World. You should be able to find all the info you need there!

You stay padlocked as long as you have to remain in formation. If you break padlock a second to early, chances are you'll drift a few feet in the process and thereby "destroy" the look of the formation. It's a well timed and orchestrated move that generally starts with the break-off first, followed by a view change and then an un-trim during the latter process as you're breaking away. Some of it is muscle memory, some of it is a timely finger fire in order to hit the right buttons in the right order during a second or two of flying blind by "feel". Reason we don't do it the other way around is because it's a million times easier to spot an error with 4, 5 or 6 planes in unison than a lone plane on a stray path for a second...

Speedbrakes for the rejoins. Yes! It's all about eyeballing your closure and whether you need the boards extended, momentarily or prolonged. My personal technique is to push my rejoin speed to the limit (since, as #6 I do more rejoins than any other VTB) and use up to a 200 knot overtake, hit the boards at the right time, but keep the rpm's high! Once I get slow enough I can close the speedbrakes and basically if timed correctly make a "hockey stop" into the formation (or right next to it) without ever falling back again. The most effective way to bleed speed however, is by induced drag or a constant high wing loading. The combination of all the above is used for the High Bomb Burst Rejoin by the Diamond pilots. btw, since we're on the topic, we don't use any radar lock at all and the second you "buddy spike" someone in-game, be prepared to hear whining!

The manual leaves a lot to be desired, but then again... this is our spare time. There are thousands of details not brought up and the "manual" is merely bones. To put meat on the bones there's a lot of research involved and trust me when I say it never stops!

LD

[Burner]

My technique for the diamond pitch up break goes like this.

Keep padlock on the Boss as he breaks. Switch to HUD zoom view, I keep it on the T-Switch of my throttle. Pitch to the prebriefed angle, float, roll and pull. Release HUD Zoom to automatically reaquire the Boss- regulate your pull to slide in right above and behind his smoke trail, if you do it correctly the Boss's smoke will be directly between you and the crowd thus hiding you from sight. If you're flying a high number and have a long time from the Boss's pitch until your own you might consider disengaging padlock w/o changing your head position b/f the Boss breaks then just looking straight up once you're flying the break, if you've pitched to the correct angle and rolled precisely as well then the next plane in sequence should be straight above you.

[pedrosura]

Having a problem with with Cougar. I loaded the firmware and Foxy. Everythjing looks good. Loaded the VTB profiles. When I go to Lockon the buttons don't work. Only get the POV, Throttle, Pitch, roll and nothing else. Am I missing something? Re-installed everything and tried different things. Is there a procedure anywhere for loading the 3 VTB files? Thank you, P