Got a question for you if I may;
First of all, congrats on doing a hell of a lot of work to get your program up and running. I can only imagine how difficult it must have been, and how much satisfaction you are getting from it.
There are certain aspects of the team show formation environment that would be very hard to duplicate in the simulator and I'm interested in how you have this set up for yourselves.
For example, for the real life scenario, just dealing with the slot here and discounting the wing positions for a moment, if the slot is in position, he experiences trim changes opposite to lead's and as such, the position is hard to fly for the slot, and lead can feel him there by the trim change lead needs that he wouldn't need if the slot was out of position. In other words, if slot is in position, lead can feel him there and if he's out, LEAD'S trim changes!!
What this means in real life is that you have the slot holding a "paint" on the lead's aircraft along a position line.
What I'm getting at here is that in real life you don't have the "crash or impact zone" that you have built into the simulator. Slot flies the position and either hits or doesn't hit lead based on his ability to hold position on his position line.
In the simulator, there seems to be a programmed proximity zone for air to air impact...at least there is in MSFS anyway.
Do you have such a zone in the Lock On simulator, and if so, have you changed it in any way to accomodate the proximity required for your formation work?
Handling the sim crash proximity zones question
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dhenriques
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Handling the sim crash proximity zones question
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
There's no need for trim in our sim and even though the real F-16 has trim, it's all fly-by-wire and computer controlled unless the pilot asks to do manual inputs. I'd like to know how much if any interference the planes cause each other for real demo teams? I know they fly offset positioning based on the type of airplane in use to avoid wake turbulence and jet wash.
Lock-On has (I'm 99% sure) true 3D modeling of the airplanes and their damage models. Unless you physically hit the other plane you won't crash and burn. No invisible "zones" in other words...
LawnDart
Lock-On has (I'm 99% sure) true 3D modeling of the airplanes and their damage models. Unless you physically hit the other plane you won't crash and burn. No invisible "zones" in other words...
LawnDart
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dhenriques
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Trim on the Viper can be used either on the sidestick tree or from the trim wheel on the trim MTP.LawnDart wrote:There's no need for trim in our sim and even though the real F-16 has trim, it's all fly-by-wire and computer controlled unless the pilot asks to do manual inputs. I'd like to know how much if any interference the planes cause each other for real demo teams? I know they fly offset positioning based on the type of airplane in use to avoid wake turbulence and jet wash.
Lock-On has (I'm 99% sure) true 3D modeling of the airplanes and their damage models. Unless you physically hit the other plane you won't crash and burn. No invisible "zones" in other words...
LawnDart
You are correct that formation interference is type related. It's much easier and safer to fly a tight formation in similar types than it is with dissimilar types There are some basic issues that apply with close in formation work with fighters.
The first thing you get in the lateral scenario (for you this would be the two wing positions in the diamond, or with the solos tipped in for the Delta is a plane of symmertry that will develop halfway between any two wing positions in lateral spacing. There isn't any lateral flow between the two components generating off each similar aircraft's wingtip. In other words, what you will get is a tip vortice that contains a 'roll away" tendency for each wing position. Each aircraft will experience a reduction in tip trailing vortices and a reduction of the induced tip velocities. The resultant of all this is an increase in each wing positions inboard wingtip lift distribution which causes a pronounced roll moment away from the other aircraft.
Generally, in real life, it's not a show stopper, but it's something the wingies have to consider and compensate for when in close.
It's well to note here that this tendency is the highest at high AOA on a low aspect ratio wing planform like the Viper's, and almost all of the team's close in formation work is done at low alpha.
Step down interference is something for the slot position to consider.
What this addresses is the normal upwash/downwash distribution system that is interrupted by the slot being up in position where he belongs.
What happens is lead experiences some reduced drag due to the slots correct positioning that is not unlike a drafting NASCAR pair
Lead also gets a reduction in downwash at the stabilator and a change in pitch moment NOSE DOWN. The slot gets basically the opposite. He gets increased induced drag, an increase in stab downwash, and a NOSE UP pitch change. This is why I mentioned the trim changes to you.
Just as an aside to all this; I don't know if you have experienced this yet and I offer it just as a friendly suggestion for you, but there very well might be a similarity between how we use trim in real life in close formation and what you are doing in the simulator.
Generally, in close and doing aerobatics, we use some negative pitch trim. This helps zero out any null at the exact neutral on the stick and gives us a very positive feel on the stick. I don't have to tell you how important positive control is in close
The sim sticks, especially the Cougar and the CH products, have a hell of a null that you probably already have set up for minimum in the sim anyway, but you might find that feeding in a little negative nose down trim will help you a lot in the Diamond, especially through the float where you are easing off some g. If the sticks get close to neutral trim without having some negative pitch in there for good measure, you could find one of you at least getting what we used to call a "soft stick". Just a suggestion.
I haven't been associated with the Thunderbirds since the T38 team in 75, and I know that back then,, as far as trim wasconcerned; how each pilot flew a position is up to him. The Blues used a ton of negative stick force for the reasons I have given you, and I know Doug Roach on the 75 T38 team wore out a whole bunch of trim motors in his bird
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Dudley, I have some formation experience in real jets and would like to make some comments here.
Lockon does not model the aerodynamic effect of close proximity to other aircraft. I have stuck the pitot tube inside the jet exhaust with no ill effects and jetwash also is non-existent. The sim also auto-trims the VIper so that variable is removed as well. There is no need to fly with any trim force.
Having said that, the basics are very similiar. The control inputs for position keeping are EXTREMELY similiar to the real thing.
In some other ways things are more difficult. For example, when Lawn dart begins a pull-up to a manoeuvre, he must rely on muscle memory solely to give a smooth pullup at the correct G. There is no other facet, such as percieved G force or the balance organs, that he can use. The Wingy's also cannot rely on kinesthetic sense to stay on the wing during pullup. They must simply match LD's manoueuvres visually, with the added complication of lag.
LD will call the pullups on Ventrilo but sometimes the lag to the ventrilo server and to the game server can be different.
More complications.
I am the only Aussie in the team so I regularly fly with a 300 ping to LD's server and a 170 ping to the Ventrilo server. It causes some hassles but it can be done.
The key is practice. You cannot overemphasize the position of the lead and lots of practice. If you have a consistent lead who knows his stuff, then all will fall into place with practice.
Having said all that, I take my hat off to any member of a real formation team. Just to be considered for any one of the elite teams would be an honour. I also take my hat off to the other members of the Virtual T-Birds for pretty much the same reasons. The skills are not exactly the same as required by real pilots, but this real pilot knows enough about both sides of the fence to be suitably impressed.
Cobra
Lockon does not model the aerodynamic effect of close proximity to other aircraft. I have stuck the pitot tube inside the jet exhaust with no ill effects and jetwash also is non-existent. The sim also auto-trims the VIper so that variable is removed as well. There is no need to fly with any trim force.
Having said that, the basics are very similiar. The control inputs for position keeping are EXTREMELY similiar to the real thing.
In some other ways things are more difficult. For example, when Lawn dart begins a pull-up to a manoeuvre, he must rely on muscle memory solely to give a smooth pullup at the correct G. There is no other facet, such as percieved G force or the balance organs, that he can use. The Wingy's also cannot rely on kinesthetic sense to stay on the wing during pullup. They must simply match LD's manoueuvres visually, with the added complication of lag.
LD will call the pullups on Ventrilo but sometimes the lag to the ventrilo server and to the game server can be different.
More complications.
I am the only Aussie in the team so I regularly fly with a 300 ping to LD's server and a 170 ping to the Ventrilo server. It causes some hassles but it can be done.
The key is practice. You cannot overemphasize the position of the lead and lots of practice. If you have a consistent lead who knows his stuff, then all will fall into place with practice.
Having said all that, I take my hat off to any member of a real formation team. Just to be considered for any one of the elite teams would be an honour. I also take my hat off to the other members of the Virtual T-Birds for pretty much the same reasons. The skills are not exactly the same as required by real pilots, but this real pilot knows enough about both sides of the fence to be suitably impressed.
Cobra
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dhenriques
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You make a valid point about the lag. In the real formation it's a combination of the pre execution cadence coupled with the timing of the execution call plus visuals. When you move the stick it's on lead's EXPECTED execution call based on his known cadence timing between the prep and the execution call. This is the only way you get everybody in the same maneuver plane without a burble. (this really gets hectic for the outside wing in roll and for the slot in pitch if lead's cadence is changed in any way. The Thunderbirds of course tape every practice and show. I've sat in with them many times during their preflight and postflight briefs and I can tell you that the one thing everybody keys in on when someone is a half inch out of position is lead's call cadence.TWC_Cobra wrote:Dudley, I have some formation experience in real jets and would like to make some comments here.
Lockon does not model the aerodynamic effect of close proximity to other aircraft. I have stuck the pitot tube inside the jet exhaust with no ill effects and jetwash also is non-existent. The sim also auto-trims the VIper so that variable is removed as well. There is no need to fly with any trim force.
Having said that, the basics are very similiar. The control inputs for position keeping are EXTREMELY similiar to the real thing.
In some other ways things are more difficult. For example, when Lawn dart begins a pull-up to a manoeuvre, he must rely on muscle memory solely to give a smooth pullup at the correct G. There is no other facet, such as percieved G force or the balance organs, that he can use. The Wingy's also cannot rely on kinesthetic sense to stay on the wing during pullup. They must simply match LD's manoueuvres visually, with the added complication of lag.
LD will call the pullups on Ventrilo but sometimes the lag to the ventrilo server and to the game server can be different.
More complications.
I am the only Aussie in the team so I regularly fly with a 300 ping to LD's server and a 170 ping to the Ventrilo server. It causes some hassles but it can be done.
The key is practice. You cannot overemphasize the position of the lead and lots of practice. If you have a consistent lead who knows his stuff, then all will fall into place with practice.
Having said all that, I take my hat off to any member of a real formation team. Just to be considered for any one of the elite teams would be an honour. I also take my hat off to the other members of the Virtual T-Birds for pretty much the same reasons. The skills are not exactly the same as required by real pilots, but this real pilot knows enough about both sides of the fence to be suitably impressed.
Cobra
It's interesting what these fellows are doing with the sim, and in some ways doing a virtual show to actual Thunderbird standards the way they are doing it could be as demanding as doing it for real...without the danger of course
What facinates me is that for the simulation venue they're tied together by land line radio wise and that has some degree of lag to begin with...at least in the formation maneuvering requirement department anyway
. I'm sure Dart uses a cadence, and if I'm any judge at all, he's probably devoted some hours of practice to getting it exactly on cue timing wise, as this is the first thing every Aerobatic team lead realizes from the moment he takes the boss' chair. I know one ex Thunderbird lead quite well. He spent hours in front of a mirror practicing his calls just to get the timing between the prep and the execution call exactly right. His wife used to laugh like hell and brought us to tears laughing telling us what he sounded like alone in the bathroom! )I understand about the trim situation. I just thought that carrying some negative pitch trim on a Hotas Cougar might be better than keeping it neutral with that null in the middle
)Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Well, to give you the short gist of it...
I use the same calls as the actual Thunderbirds for the most part, however our pulls, rates and turns are "slowed down" to account for lag. We cannot go ahead and pull 4G's in the loop like the real guys for instance cause you'd lose everyone in formation (it wouldn't be quite so bad on LAN, but over the internet... Gosh!). What we do instead is an extremely gradual pull and we never really get close to 4G, but our tweaked procedure and loadout makes the loop both appear and be flown as closely as possible to the real deal. The comms we use have a different lag for each and every pilot, some worse than others. In general everyone has about half a second lag to a full second between when I call something until they would hear it so I always do my calls at the exact same time and hold off on the actual control input a standard amount of time for every move. Even though comm lag varies and even worse, can be different from the lag in the sim it usually works pretty well for the most part. Consistency is a must! ..and once everyone gets used to the "lag of the day" we're back in the game!
As far as comms go, when lead on the Thunderbirds calls "Rolling left and rolling" he would begin the roll on the "r" of the second "rolling" in that sentence. When I call it flying online I'd call "Rolling left and rolling"... (1,000-One)... and then make the control input. Hope this explains the beast we have to deal with here!
LawnDart
I use the same calls as the actual Thunderbirds for the most part, however our pulls, rates and turns are "slowed down" to account for lag. We cannot go ahead and pull 4G's in the loop like the real guys for instance cause you'd lose everyone in formation (it wouldn't be quite so bad on LAN, but over the internet... Gosh!). What we do instead is an extremely gradual pull and we never really get close to 4G, but our tweaked procedure and loadout makes the loop both appear and be flown as closely as possible to the real deal. The comms we use have a different lag for each and every pilot, some worse than others. In general everyone has about half a second lag to a full second between when I call something until they would hear it so I always do my calls at the exact same time and hold off on the actual control input a standard amount of time for every move. Even though comm lag varies and even worse, can be different from the lag in the sim it usually works pretty well for the most part. Consistency is a must! ..and once everyone gets used to the "lag of the day" we're back in the game!
As far as comms go, when lead on the Thunderbirds calls "Rolling left and rolling" he would begin the roll on the "r" of the second "rolling" in that sentence. When I call it flying online I'd call "Rolling left and rolling"... (1,000-One)... and then make the control input. Hope this explains the beast we have to deal with here!
LawnDart
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dhenriques
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- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:27 pm
I'll tell ya LD, after spending a lifetime in and around high performance airplanes I wouldn't want to sit down cold and attempt what you guys have accomplished here. Considering all the factors involved, I think you could easily sit down in the Thunderbirds ready room and do a credible job of impressing all in attendance. Of course there might have to be some attitude adjustment time over at the O club later onLawnDart wrote:Well, to give you the short gist of it...
I use the same calls as the actual Thunderbirds for the most part, however our pulls, rates and turns are "slowed down" to account for lag. We cannot go ahead and pull 4G's in the loop like the real guys for instance cause you'd lose everyone in formation (it wouldn't be quite so bad on LAN, but over the internet... Gosh!). What we do instead is an extremely gradual pull and we never really get close to 4G, but our tweaked procedure and loadout makes the loop both appear and be flown as closely as possible to the real deal. The comms we use have a different lag for each and every pilot, some worse than others. In general everyone has about half a second lag to a full second between when I call something until they would hear it so I always do my calls at the exact same time and hold off on the actual control input a standard amount of time for every move. Even though comm lag varies and even worse, can be different from the lag in the sim it usually works pretty well for the most part. Consistency is a must! ..and once everyone gets used to the "lag of the day" we're back in the game!
As far as comms go, when lead on the Thunderbirds calls "Rolling left and rolling" he would begin the roll on the "r" of the second "rolling" in that sentence. When I call it flying online I'd call "Rolling left and rolling"... (1,000-One)... and then make the control input. Hope this explains the beast we have to deal with here!
LawnDart
)Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
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Convertible
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Lawndart,
Thanks for the advice. I have been leading BonJobie through the routine for some time and have really found your advice useful. I have started doing the same thing with the server lag. "Smoke on Ready now (1,000 one)" for example syncs us up when turning on the smoke. I have been really impressed with how well you do. Leading is not as easy as one might think. I find it just as challenging as staying on the wing or slot position. The slow movements that are needed not to spit your wing men out are very real. After having done it for a while now, I am very impressed with how well you do. I know the show really well, and we are working to perfect some of the manuevers better. Thanks again for all your help and advice. What fun it is!!!!
Boozig (Convertible)
Thanks for the advice. I have been leading BonJobie through the routine for some time and have really found your advice useful. I have started doing the same thing with the server lag. "Smoke on Ready now (1,000 one)" for example syncs us up when turning on the smoke. I have been really impressed with how well you do. Leading is not as easy as one might think. I find it just as challenging as staying on the wing or slot position. The slow movements that are needed not to spit your wing men out are very real. After having done it for a while now, I am very impressed with how well you do. I know the show really well, and we are working to perfect some of the manuevers better. Thanks again for all your help and advice. What fun it is!!!!
Boozig (Convertible)
