In Respect for VTB

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Air_Wolf
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In Respect for VTB

Post by Air_Wolf » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:40 pm

Hey,

Over at BMS forums someone brought up the idea of creating a BMS Thunderbirds. I suggested it was not a good idea since of the current VTB ...and suggested this person to get permission first...I also along with -wizard- explained out of respect he should form another team or at least join here.

Here is the link:
http://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/show ... underbirds

Cheers...
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Teej
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Post by Teej » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:19 pm

I for one look forward to seeing what they come up with. It was tried in AF, but the multiplayer code (esp. position consistency) wasn't there.

Most of us were Falconeers before getting into aerobatics.
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Post by Air_Wolf » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:59 pm

Teej wrote:I for one look forward to seeing what they come up with. It was tried in AF, but the multiplayer code (esp. position consistency) wasn't there.

Most of us were Falconeers before getting into aerobatics.
This is not bothering you if they set up a VTB for BMS...I saw pics of your flying in formation in BMS...

I thought out of respect that they shouldn't try this...but if its cool here then okay then...I thought I'd let you know of it though.
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Teej
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Post by Teej » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:48 pm

I'm not intending to speak for the whole team....but no, I personally am not bothered if they give it a go. More power to 'em.

First thing to deal with will be to see if the BMS gang fixed something that persisted throughout F4AF's mods - Every observer would see a formation differently. If you were attempting to fly wing, for example, and flew what was from your perspective a perfect "diamond" sight picture...from the boss's point of view you were about 10-15' too far back and a bit wide. To be seen "in diamond" by the boss, you had to fly line abreast.

As to where a ground based observer might see you...it could be yet another perspective.

I think it'd be more fun to see a wider variety of airshow routines in the virtual airshow community, but "bothered" by a BMS Thunderbirds? Not me.
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Post by Air_Wolf » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:23 pm

Teej wrote:I'm not intending to speak for the whole team....but no, I personally am not bothered if they give it a go. More power to 'em.

First thing to deal with will be to see if the BMS gang fixed something that persisted throughout F4AF's mods - Every observer would see a formation differently. If you were attempting to fly wing, for example, and flew what was from your perspective a perfect "diamond" sight picture...from the boss's point of view you were about 10-15' too far back and a bit wide. To be seen "in diamond" by the boss, you had to fly line abreast.

As to where a ground based observer might see you...it could be yet another perspective.

I think it'd be more fun to see a wider variety of airshow routines in the virtual airshow community, but "bothered" by a BMS Thunderbirds? Not me.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/680438/thunder.wmv
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Teej
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Post by Teej » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:52 pm

That was...interesting.
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Post by Air_Wolf » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:09 pm

Teej wrote:
That was...interesting.
Not sure if lead was doing all that intensionally or it was like you mentioned not being able to do close formation but the others did seem to hold close formation...but not no VTB boys though...routine way off.
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Tailhook
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Post by Tailhook » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:20 pm

Well there goes 3 minutes of my life I'll never get back. It looks more like a single guy flying around with 3 AI wingmen.
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Post by Air_Wolf » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:22 pm

Tailhook wrote:
Well there goes 3 minutes of my life I'll never get back.
My reason for anyone wanting to imitate VTB...not good...disrespectful...in the long run...of things...
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Teej
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Post by Teej » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:28 pm

Tailhook wrote:
Well there goes 3 minutes of my life I'll never get back. It looks more like a single guy flying around with 3 AI wingmen.
The AI wingmen is what I was thinking as well.
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Teej
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Post by Teej » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:40 pm

At the end of the day, we don't "own" any rights to the Thunderbirds name - that right - and respect - belongs to the USAF Thunderbirds. If these guys want to fly a Thunderbirds show in BMS...they have nobody to answer to but themselves - but I'd hope they wouldn't go releasing things that reflect poorly on the real team.


I do object to people releasing crazy/dumb things (dogfighting, crash videos, blooper reels, etc) in the paint of a real team (be it TB, BA, RA, SB, PS, BJT, PJT or any of the other quality teams whose names are eluding me at the moment - that list is by no means exhaustive, and I don't think I _could_ manage to be exhaustive in listing all the great real and virtual teams!)...and that video bordered on that.
Last edited by Teej on Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lawndart
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Post by Lawndart » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:21 pm

I'd 2nd Teej's comments. If anyone can pull it off in Falcon/BMS and do it well (!), more power to ya. As long as it's done in a respectfully and with some level of quality, I'd encourage the efforts.
Air_Wolf wrote:My reason for anyone wanting to imitate VTB...not good...disrespectful...in the long run...
I'd hope they're imitating or reenacting the real Thunderbirds and not us! :wink:

There's no permission needed from us. Anyone who wants to try their hand at the Thunderbirds demo in a simulator is free to do so. We only ask that you don't call yourselves [the] Virtual Thunderbirds (our household name) or we may have a thing or two to say about it...

Secondly, as long as it's respectful and done well to reflect the real team we have absolutely no objections. Furthermore, our intellectual property is obviously close to heart (blatant plagarism is generally frowned upon), but if you have Qs ask them in the appropriate forum and articulate your Qs as clearly as possible and someone will be happy to help. We have over half a decade of substancial experience and in depth research following the real team very closely.

Lastly, if anyone trying their hand in Falcon/BMS realizes that it isn't up to par for producing this kind of flying, feel free to put in for a tryout with the VTB. 8)
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Post by Air_Wolf » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:56 am

Lawndart wrote:I'd 2nd Teej's comments. If anyone can pull it off in Falcon/BMS and do it well (!), more power to ya. As long as it's done in a respectfully and with some level of quality, I'd encourage the efforts.
Air_Wolf wrote:My reason for anyone wanting to imitate VTB...not good...disrespectful...in the long run...
I'd hope they're imitating or reenacting the real Thunderbirds and not us! :wink:

There's no permission needed from us. Anyone who wants to try their hand at the Thunderbirds demo in a simulator is free to do so. We only ask that you don't call yourselves [the] Virtual Thunderbirds (our household name) or we may have a thing or two to say about it...

Secondly, as long as it's respectful and done well to reflect the real team we have absolutely no objections. Furthermore, our intellectual property is obviously close to heart (blatant plagarism is generally frowned upon), but if you have Qs ask them in the appropriate forum and articulate your Qs as clearly as possible and someone will be happy to help. We have over half a decade of substancial experience and in depth research following the real team very closely.

Lastly, if anyone trying their hand in Falcon/BMS realizes that it isn't up to par for producing this kind of flying, feel free to put in for a tryout with the VTB. 8)
Well, several members at BMS forums objected to his query...of forming a Thunderbird team for BMS...in regards to respect of the VTB team...he was also gonna ask you for any input...in helping him with hints and tips...I've tried the formation and it seems much smoother and you can get closer to lead...not sure how it looks as a bystander's view though....

Cheers.

I will be soon forming my tribute team...
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Post by A.S » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:31 pm

Suggest reading from post 31 downwards.

http://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/show ... e-go/page4

I am trying it (aerobatics) on BMS myself atm, becuase -sure enough- I wanted to know if it can be done realistically. So far, I just love it.
IF host and client are stable netcode and FM permits nice displays, definitely.
Further investigations to come, once VFAT is over...and hopefully Frazer has time to give it a shot with me. (You need a good wingy do judge logically).
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Post by Lawndart » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:06 pm

Lawndart wrote:Seen my name mentioned several times in this thread... :o

Hello everyone,

I've already PM'ed with DarkGable my quick thoughts surrounding the subject of a BMS Thunderbirds team. I agree with a lot that's been said in this thread ranging from earning mutual respect and being methodical (i.e. learning to walk before you run), and thanks for keeping it classy.

Trying to think of a way to summarize the VTB's standpoint...

It's great to see passion and dedication regardless of which community you consider yourself part of. When it all comes around very few people understand what we do to the degree and attention to detail it requires, so it would be foolish for any of us to argue over something along those lines. There's of course also the part of "you just don't know what you don't know", and how far do you want to take this? While some people look at us like elitist, sponsored and looking down on others... the truth is very different. It requires such focus on our parts for what we do to take it to the level we continually strive for that there isn't much time left over for much else in ones day, and that may come across to some as somewhat standoff-ish.

I'll second what Rhino said: "If you aren't having fun, you aren't doing it right", and that's the basic core value we all should remember. Also, we wouldn't be talking here if we didn't have common ground already.

At some point though you also have to realize what the limitations of the product chosen are if you want to push the envelope of what's possible in any sim. I can't comment on BMS per se as I've yet to try it out, but from my own Falcon background I'll just say there was a time when I desperately wanted a Thunderbird demo to be possible in Falcon, but we came to a point where it didn't make any more sense to banging our heads against the wall anymore. Therefore we (read: Virtual Thunderbirds) have always made it our goal to use whatever sim and equipment we feel best suits our needs to replicate the demo to the highest degree of accuracy we feel possible regardless of sim. We went after a sponsor in Thrustmaster that we've had a relationship with for more than five years now, and each year we've stepped up the meticulous research that goes into identifying little nuances and changes in the real life procedures that take place from year to year, sometimes due to different pilots flying it (i.e. technique) and other times the operational specifications are re-written by the real team. It's a constant state of flux and it goes without saying that we wouldn't still be doing this if it was easy. It's hard, but above all it's a lot of hard work. Hundreds of hours outside of ever stepping into the pit to fly in the sim each year. It's a challenge every season, but at the heart of it all that passion and dedication turns into relentless work and once again, "if we weren't having fun, we wouldn't be doing it [right]".

While it's true that high-end gear isn't needed, every team can make their own choice and we chose to pursue a route that meant having everyone flying with the same equipment and using nothing but the best (in our own opinion of course). Luckily, through hard work and constant search for the best commercially available flight controllers, setups and simulators we've been fortunate to form a relationship with Thrustmaster and they've given us the capability to use the same setups across the board for each pilot/team member. Our contract with them extends beyond that and is the main reason why we turned this into a a business venture as well. Many of us have piloting backgrounds, both in real life and in flight simulators... but we're also a relatively computer savvy group of guys/gals, so it was only a natural thing to push for in having high-end gear in our homes. I will agree 100% that a talented and dedicated person can get the same job done without breaking the bank and using a budget joystick. All I'm saying is it wasn't our cup of tea and thanks to our approach we don't have to worry about equipment or money being an obstacle.

Rhino is absolutely right about it not being necessary though, and running the business side of things is another animal all in itself. Furthermore, anyone can learn to fly well. Some people have more raw talent than others, but in the end we have yet to find anyone out there who couldn't be taught the motors kills and achieve the same results as the rest of us through practice. What's harder to find is the right person for the job (and in many ways it is like a job... albeit hobby/part-time job). The personality and passion isn't something you can measure objectively, but something that is crucial to have if you're going to be successful in "surviving" debriefs, self-critique and the constant pursuit for perfection. You have to learn to love every bit of it! The homework part outside of the actual flying probably takes up about ten times more time, focus and dedication than simply strapping on the jet to execute a profile in the simulator.

Alright, I feel I've strayed off course a little bit here... but hopefully it can be seen as some insight to where the VTB are coming from, and know that we encourage anyone wanting to give BMS a try. To expand on that, however, at some point you also have to ask what your own goal is and if the sim will provide enough for you to get you there. We're always open to tryouts and we never corner ourselves to any sim, but simply use whatever is best to fly the demo as accurately as possible on a PC. Lastly, our tryouts are more about finding the right people to "hire", not about finding someone who drops our jaws on the floor the first time we see 'em fly, although that certainly gets attention too. Point is that anyone can be taught if they're receptive and willing to learn, but you can't teach someone the "intangibles".


Good luck, and let us know how things go!
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