Got a call a few days ago from John Amico, the chief pilot for all of ATP (23 facilities nationwide). He offered me a slot in the January 31st instructor standardization class in Jacksonville, Fla. It's a 2 to 3 week course.
Afterwards I'll either remain there and work in the call center until a spot opens up at my facility of choice (KLZU, Lawrenceville) or I go somewhere else and transfer later. I hear that there's a spot available at KLZU and that no one in my class is wanting that, so I hope it works out!
I completed my commercial multi-instrument add-on and multi engine instructor ratings with ATP here in Lawrenceville, Ga. back in Oct. and Nov. My examiner for both rides was apparently impressed with my performance and said he'd like to see me become an instructor for ATP. He put in a good word or two as did a few of the instructors I flew with. I believe those recommendations helped me immensely - as they usually only hire graduates from their Airline Career Pilot program.
I currently have 600 TT and 22 multi - but according to instructors at the KLZU facility, they log around 80 to 100 hours a month in the Seminole. That's a ton of multi-time! I'm pretty excited and anxious at the same time, it's an intense 2-3 weeks and they want you to know their procedures cold - so I'll be studying my ass off in the mean time!
Tentatively hired by ATP flight school
It'll prep him well for his next job in the right seat, and not just the attire but pay too.Beaker wrote:Atta boy! Get ready to rock epaulets.
As already mentioned, great news Raymond!!! Oh, and the part about knowing SOPs cold is pretty much standard industry practice each time you get a new job or type, so get used to it and get ready to drink from the fire hose, rookie! Even though this is a flight school training course, it'll be good for you for when the flood gates open to the airlines - they tend to like structured environments too.
P.S. They're lucky to have you and I'm certain you'll exceed their standards by a mile. Show 'em how it's done or else tell 'em they suck and to go uninstall!
Thanks Ells!
Yeah it will certainly prep me for the airline environment, especially the pay at a regional
It's $1500/month + performance bonus of $40 whenever your student passes a checkride - and I get paid to train in JAX and free housing. I think it's $200/mo. for housing in KLZU, utilities included. So it's not a bad deal for CFI'ing. I might actually make more than I would first year at a regional!
I'll have to make sure I don't let any Thunderbird calls slip out. Turning base in the 172, "Thunderbird 3, gear!" "3's ok!"
Yeah it will certainly prep me for the airline environment, especially the pay at a regional
It's $1500/month + performance bonus of $40 whenever your student passes a checkride - and I get paid to train in JAX and free housing. I think it's $200/mo. for housing in KLZU, utilities included. So it's not a bad deal for CFI'ing. I might actually make more than I would first year at a regional!
I'll have to make sure I don't let any Thunderbird calls slip out. Turning base in the 172, "Thunderbird 3, gear!" "3's ok!"
The pay will be a little better when I'm flying for FedEx. For a flight instructor gig, that's actually pretty good (even going back ten years ago). I'm not arguing that it's low pay, but this is far better than most schools pay their instructor staff. I made less per 'work hour' than minimum wage while I was teaching most days, damn Hobbs time and not getting paid for paperwork, cancellations etc. It's really unfortunate, because it's such an important job and the instructors deserve much more than the pathetic pay they receive...Cobra wrote:$1,500.00 a month?!!?!?
Because we all live in a bubble hoping to get your job at Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services!Cobra wrote:Why would anyone want to become a pilot in this day and age?
Hey Ray,
It is not that I am not happy for you, just shocked that the pay rate is THAT low. I am lucky I guess. My RAAF pay was pretty good for a young single guy and from then my airline pay keeps me in beer money and more.
But the airlines have cottoned on to the fact that people will fly for peanuts in order to build up hours. With that and the BS cadet schemes they are now using to put low time, low paid learners into the right hand seat of airliners... ( thank God your govt has put a floor under the hours required to be a co-pilot), I really fear for the future of this profession.
It is why I really wonder why any young people consider it these days. The rewards are simply not there when compared to the cost and commitment, including all the debts that accrue.
The pay rates and US major airlines are a joke now as well. They used to be the envy of the world. My airline now pays more than most, and not because we have had massive pay rises in the last decade... Everyone else has gone backwards and come back to us or worse.
It is not that I am not happy for you, just shocked that the pay rate is THAT low. I am lucky I guess. My RAAF pay was pretty good for a young single guy and from then my airline pay keeps me in beer money and more.
But the airlines have cottoned on to the fact that people will fly for peanuts in order to build up hours. With that and the BS cadet schemes they are now using to put low time, low paid learners into the right hand seat of airliners... ( thank God your govt has put a floor under the hours required to be a co-pilot), I really fear for the future of this profession.
It is why I really wonder why any young people consider it these days. The rewards are simply not there when compared to the cost and commitment, including all the debts that accrue.
The pay rates and US major airlines are a joke now as well. They used to be the envy of the world. My airline now pays more than most, and not because we have had massive pay rises in the last decade... Everyone else has gone backwards and come back to us or worse.
I understand what you mean. The pay for most CFI's is not very good and most schools don't put CFI's on a salary like ATP.
I'd guess that I'll average low $2,000 a month with the checkride bonuses. Not great, but not terrible, for me at least. I'm also not in debt to any banks, thanks to my dads assistance in funding my flight training. I owe him big.
It is unfortunate that the pay is not more - but in the end it is not all about pay, and that's one of the reasons it's so low. People will do it because it gives them enjoyment and the reward of being a professional pilot (even if it's not as respected as it once was) is just as important to them as the pay, or lack thereof. It's a double edged sword. "Man I love to fly I'll do it for free!" "No don't do that it'll lower the wages if they know you'll fly for free!" "But if I don't take this job then the next guy will!" I just don't see a way to prevent this mentality.
In regards to the flight hours required to become a co-pilot, I always think about how little time/experience military pilots have when they first launch off the end of the boat in their F-18. I think it comes down to the quality and type of training, total time is nice - but it's all about the quality. I could have 10,000 hours of banner tow or local VFR flying, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that I'm prepared to operate in the airline environment. From what I've seen at ATP so far, they really stress the quality in the form of scenario based training, adherence to procedures, crew resource management, etc. - all very important skills to have when operating in the airline environment.
Judgement is something that is hard to develop without a lot of flight time though. As the old saying goes "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." However, I think if flight time was a safety issue, that we'd see far more accidents than there are - there were quite a few VERY low time pilots hired back in '06-'07, and to my knowledge there hasn't been an incident involving them, yet.
Although a bit off-topic - I don't really agree with the kneejerk reaction by the FAA/Congress to attempt to raise the hiring minimums in lieu of the Colgan 3407 crash. The flight time of the pilots was hardly a contributing factor, the co-pilot had over 2,000 hours, the captain, over 5,000. Poor piloting was ultimately to blame. The captain had flown in icing conditions many times before, whereas the co-pilot had not, but it was not the co-pilot that reacted inappropriately to the stick pusher and yanked the airplane up into a falling leaf maneuver and over into the ground.
I believe the main causes of that accident were fatigue, violation of the sterile cockpit below 10,000, using autopilot in icing conditions, failure to advance throttles to approach power upon level off at initial approach altitude, lack of attention on the part of the pilot and co-pilot in regards to the rapidly decaying airspeed on the approach, lack of familiarization with the stick pusher, upon stick pusher activation, incorrectly assuming that he was experiencing a tailplane stall and finally, grossly incorrect response to the stick pusher which seemed to result in a sudden lapse of even the most basic airmen skills in regards to stall recognition and recovery. Given his past record of checkride failures, I conclude that he was just not that good of a pilot, or fatigue just really did them in - all of those mistakes are indicative of the reduced cognitive abilities and attention that one experiences when distracted (by their conversation) and/or fatigued. It had very little to do with flight time.
The FAA doesn't seem to understand that you can't prevent all accidents, and putting the 1,500 hour and ATP rule for co-pilots into place is not going to accomplish much of anything - accidents will continue to happen.
But, in the end, raising the minimums can only help safety, even if it prevents just one accident from happening, unless complacency sets in. The situation just sucks for pilots in my position that hope to make a career out of flying, and have to figure out a way to build all that time, especially multi-engine. So, in conclusion, I've done a great job of contradicting myself, good post though eh?
I'd guess that I'll average low $2,000 a month with the checkride bonuses. Not great, but not terrible, for me at least. I'm also not in debt to any banks, thanks to my dads assistance in funding my flight training. I owe him big.
It is unfortunate that the pay is not more - but in the end it is not all about pay, and that's one of the reasons it's so low. People will do it because it gives them enjoyment and the reward of being a professional pilot (even if it's not as respected as it once was) is just as important to them as the pay, or lack thereof. It's a double edged sword. "Man I love to fly I'll do it for free!" "No don't do that it'll lower the wages if they know you'll fly for free!" "But if I don't take this job then the next guy will!" I just don't see a way to prevent this mentality.
In regards to the flight hours required to become a co-pilot, I always think about how little time/experience military pilots have when they first launch off the end of the boat in their F-18. I think it comes down to the quality and type of training, total time is nice - but it's all about the quality. I could have 10,000 hours of banner tow or local VFR flying, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that I'm prepared to operate in the airline environment. From what I've seen at ATP so far, they really stress the quality in the form of scenario based training, adherence to procedures, crew resource management, etc. - all very important skills to have when operating in the airline environment.
Judgement is something that is hard to develop without a lot of flight time though. As the old saying goes "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." However, I think if flight time was a safety issue, that we'd see far more accidents than there are - there were quite a few VERY low time pilots hired back in '06-'07, and to my knowledge there hasn't been an incident involving them, yet.
Although a bit off-topic - I don't really agree with the kneejerk reaction by the FAA/Congress to attempt to raise the hiring minimums in lieu of the Colgan 3407 crash. The flight time of the pilots was hardly a contributing factor, the co-pilot had over 2,000 hours, the captain, over 5,000. Poor piloting was ultimately to blame. The captain had flown in icing conditions many times before, whereas the co-pilot had not, but it was not the co-pilot that reacted inappropriately to the stick pusher and yanked the airplane up into a falling leaf maneuver and over into the ground.
I believe the main causes of that accident were fatigue, violation of the sterile cockpit below 10,000, using autopilot in icing conditions, failure to advance throttles to approach power upon level off at initial approach altitude, lack of attention on the part of the pilot and co-pilot in regards to the rapidly decaying airspeed on the approach, lack of familiarization with the stick pusher, upon stick pusher activation, incorrectly assuming that he was experiencing a tailplane stall and finally, grossly incorrect response to the stick pusher which seemed to result in a sudden lapse of even the most basic airmen skills in regards to stall recognition and recovery. Given his past record of checkride failures, I conclude that he was just not that good of a pilot, or fatigue just really did them in - all of those mistakes are indicative of the reduced cognitive abilities and attention that one experiences when distracted (by their conversation) and/or fatigued. It had very little to do with flight time.
The FAA doesn't seem to understand that you can't prevent all accidents, and putting the 1,500 hour and ATP rule for co-pilots into place is not going to accomplish much of anything - accidents will continue to happen.
But, in the end, raising the minimums can only help safety, even if it prevents just one accident from happening, unless complacency sets in. The situation just sucks for pilots in my position that hope to make a career out of flying, and have to figure out a way to build all that time, especially multi-engine. So, in conclusion, I've done a great job of contradicting myself, good post though eh?
Last edited by Ray on Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nice post. Reads well and addresses all of the things I think should be of concern... not just a number in your logbook.
Especially seems to ring true.Ray wrote:In regards to the flight hours required to become a co-pilot, I always think about how little time/experience military pilots have when they first launch off the end of the boat in their F-18. I think it comes down to the quality and type of training, total time is nice - but it's all about the quality. I could have 10,000 hours of banner tow or local VFR flying, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that I'm prepared to operate in the airline environment. From what I've seen at ATP so far, they really stress the quality in the form of scenario based training, adherence to procedures, crew resource management, etc. - all very important skills to have when operating in the airline environment.
Can I put forward an alternate view?
I have always said that the most important crew member on an airliner from the point of view of safety, is the First Officer rather than the Captain.
The First Officer is the last link in many causal chains and history is littered with accidents that occurred because a First Officer did not speak up when he should have (Tenerife 1977) and unpublished incidents when a FO did make his concerns heard and a disaster was averted.
Being an airline captain does not disqualify you from making errors. I make them all the time and the fact that I fly with experienced FO's usually means that the errors are picked up quickly and there are no safety problems.
I listen to my FO's because I respect their experience and training. Mainly their experience. I fly with guys who have 10-12,000 hours in all sorts of flying and I know they know their stuff. It is a wonderful thing from my point of view.
Yes the military does put low time pilots into fast jets. But these pilots are monitored, further trained and assessed before they can take any responsible position in a squadron. Transport co-pilots fly with training captains in their early days. Training actually never lets up in the military... you are either being trained or training someone else. Airline flying is very different.
One day, an accident is going to happen on a aircraft with a low time co-pilot that will be attributed to he/she either not raising concerns to a captain on the basis of "well he knows what he is doing"... or the co-pilot speaking up and the captain dismissing their concerns a "What the hell would you know?". You can bet your house on that prediction.
Low time pilots, no matter how well trained, "do not know what they don't know."
It takes years before an average pilot has the mental brain space available to do their job and be critically aware of what the other person in the flight deck is really doing/aware of. That time should not be built with hundreds of paying passengers aboard. They are learners in every sense of the word.
Ray, I am sure you will do great. But have a read of this in a few years when you have your first command and see if it rings true.
I was a low time pilot once as well. I now know what I didn't know then and if it wasn't for the excellent ongoing squadron training I received AFTER doing my pilots course, well who knows what could have happened?
Bottom line is that 200 hours flying training does not equip anyone to support a captain when the S*^! hits the fan. Experienced pilots have been saying this for many years now. Go listen to Sullenberger's address to Congress. Thank goodness the US govt listened.
I'll climb off the pulpit now...
I have always said that the most important crew member on an airliner from the point of view of safety, is the First Officer rather than the Captain.
The First Officer is the last link in many causal chains and history is littered with accidents that occurred because a First Officer did not speak up when he should have (Tenerife 1977) and unpublished incidents when a FO did make his concerns heard and a disaster was averted.
Being an airline captain does not disqualify you from making errors. I make them all the time and the fact that I fly with experienced FO's usually means that the errors are picked up quickly and there are no safety problems.
I listen to my FO's because I respect their experience and training. Mainly their experience. I fly with guys who have 10-12,000 hours in all sorts of flying and I know they know their stuff. It is a wonderful thing from my point of view.
Yes the military does put low time pilots into fast jets. But these pilots are monitored, further trained and assessed before they can take any responsible position in a squadron. Transport co-pilots fly with training captains in their early days. Training actually never lets up in the military... you are either being trained or training someone else. Airline flying is very different.
One day, an accident is going to happen on a aircraft with a low time co-pilot that will be attributed to he/she either not raising concerns to a captain on the basis of "well he knows what he is doing"... or the co-pilot speaking up and the captain dismissing their concerns a "What the hell would you know?". You can bet your house on that prediction.
Low time pilots, no matter how well trained, "do not know what they don't know."
It takes years before an average pilot has the mental brain space available to do their job and be critically aware of what the other person in the flight deck is really doing/aware of. That time should not be built with hundreds of paying passengers aboard. They are learners in every sense of the word.
Ray, I am sure you will do great. But have a read of this in a few years when you have your first command and see if it rings true.
I was a low time pilot once as well. I now know what I didn't know then and if it wasn't for the excellent ongoing squadron training I received AFTER doing my pilots course, well who knows what could have happened?
Bottom line is that 200 hours flying training does not equip anyone to support a captain when the S*^! hits the fan. Experienced pilots have been saying this for many years now. Go listen to Sullenberger's address to Congress. Thank goodness the US govt listened.
I'll climb off the pulpit now...
