Flying Cheap

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Lawndart
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Flying Cheap

Post by Lawndart » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:09 pm

FRONTLINE INVESTIGATES SAFETY PROBLEMS OF MAJOR AIRLINES OUTSOURCING FLIGHTS TO SMALLER REGIONAL CARRIERS

FRONTLINE Presents
Flying Cheap
Tuesday, February 9, 2010, at 9 P.M. ET on PBS


http://www.pbs.org/frontline/flyingcheap/
Last edited by Lawndart on Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ray
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Post by Ray » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:36 am

Preview looks very good - I'll be watching tomorrow.
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Post by Lawndart » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:25 am

The full program can now be watched online. Be sure to check out the additional information posted on the PBS website such as interviews and the pilot community's response. Note: There are two different 'comments' pages - both an interesting read if you have (nothing better to do with your) time...

I like the following comment someone made about regional pilots (albeit taken out of context):
"Military pilots in general are bad at flying into high density traffic areas and subpar at using automation like FMS/autopilot. Regional pilots for the most part are skilled, they are just worked half way to death."

@Ray, Beaker, Helmet - or any other aspiring young pilots, you really ought to read through this mess! At least you'll know what you're getting into somewhere in middle between chasing the dream and hoping to fly for a living someday. It's a good documentary, and the responses from people in the industry seem genuine. (No sugar coating).

Tailwinds,
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Cobra
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Post by Cobra » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:02 pm

Supply and demand. That is why this has happened. While there is an every-ready supply of young people prepared to work for crap wages and even crappier T & C's there will be airline companies willing to take advantage of them.

Ray, Beaker, Helmet, the US pilot market is a basket case. I have had this conversation before with LD but if flying something larger than an ERJ is your ultimate goal then you may have to set your sights further afield.

Emirates, Etihad, Cathay Pacific, Qatar and others offer a career path that includes the chance of a command on some big iron in a reasonable time frame. 10 years to an A380 command.

It means not living in the US however, something that most Americans can't imagine doing.

The alternative is living LD's lifestyle. Which can work if you are single but probably won't work if you have a wife and kids to feed. I have watched the situation in the US get steadily worse for around 15 years now. US airline pilots flying the majors used to be the worlds top earners, not so now. (Incredibly, Qantas is now just about at the top).

There is no light at the end of the tunnel in the US because of the large over supply of experienced pilots desperate for a job and the even larger over-supply of newcomers equally desperate for that first jet job.

None of the pilots I know are encouraging their kids to follow in their footsteps. And I don't know what will change that situation.

LD, that quote is a gross generalisation.
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Post by Beaker » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:16 pm

I just don't know what to think these days. :?
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Post by Ray » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:59 pm

Lots of good insight in those pilot community responses.

A friend of mine was recently hired by an air ambulance operation that flies the Learjet 36 out of Cartersville, GA. He's a CFI/II with 1500 TT and 160 ME, no previous jet or turbine time.

I'm just hoping that I'll be able to find something similar when the time comes. It's all about who you know and your reputation and I think I have a pretty strong network of pilots that I'd like to think will help me out when the time comes.
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Post by STRIKER » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:08 pm

Man, my heart goes out to those regional guys. Looking back from a military perspective I can't stand people comparing who is better...who the hell cares. I feel like those guys get long days just as anyone but not the mentoring the big airlines or even military provide...dam shame since they are all equal in my book as far as flying people from here to there.
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Post by BonJobie » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:45 pm

I agree with Cobra with that quote. A gross generalization. Yes, the young pilot that grows up pounding the Northeast corridor is going to have more experience with the insanity of flying into that furball than a F-16 pilot whose experience was flying up initial at Hill AFB in Utah. However, it doesn't take long..........like ONCE to get it under your belt and next time through you are ready for battle. That's been my personal experience the first time I flew into PHL, IAD, LGA, SFO, LAX, and all of the other crazy, high density, high radio chatter airports.

Re: "Experience" Striker's comments are spot on. I did pilot interviews for almost 8 years here at Southwest, and I saw the broad range of experience in the people I interviewed from the guy who flew crop dusters to space shuttle pilots to the presidential pilot for Air Force One to regional guys and gals. In the end after they were hired and I was with some of these folks in the cockpit it all came down to the fact that they had experience..........and for here at Southwest a lot of it.

Clearly the industry here in the US of A is a mess. I also agree with Cobra that it won't be changing in the near future, and big airplane experience with equal pay will only be found for new guys and gals outside of the country. And yes..........another option is still the military.

Old Man Bon
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Post by Cobra » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:09 pm

I am no closet socialist, but as I peer into my crystal ball I can see one of two things happening in the near future.

1. One or two major US airlines will collapse requiring a govt bail-out that the US can ill-afford right now, and will only extend the problems a la JAL Airways (which got bailed-out four times by the old Japanese govt before the new one refused) or,

2. Some form of re-regulation is introduced.

Re-regulation will necessarily mean that fares will go higher and less people will travel, which will mean less pilot jobs. Those that already have them will at least enjoy some stability in their jobs with less worries about the by products of the events of 1978, Chapter 11's... full-on bankrupticies causing job losses or requiring forced mergers and consolidation of pilot seniority list and all the crap that produces, extended furloughs for those lucky enough to have a job but not lucky enough to be out of the furlough range, plus it will mean that those companies should be profitable enough to pay decent salaries.

That won't of course stop the current over-supply of pilots, which will act as a drag on salaries, but that may be less of a problem in the future with changing demographics and the sheer cost of getting a pilot education in the US.

I don't really think re-regulation will be politically viable until option 1 occurs anyway, which means more pain for airline employees in the US.

If it is any comfort, the process of stripping back the pilot profession is occuring worldwide. The frenetic market forces of the US have simply advanced the process further along than elsewhere. I have 10 years to go till retirement and I think I am one of the last of a fortunate bunch of pilots who fly decent equipment for a decent salary and T&C's that ensure I fly rested and with no pressure regarding the amount of fuel I order.

Luckily my kids don't want to fly, because I would be hard-pressed to recommend it to them.

As Bon says, the military is an option. There are quite a few pilots in Qantas that fly in the Reserve and a couple in recent times who, sensing the winds of change, have opted to return to the military completely. Something unheard of in recent history.
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