VFAT 2007

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Lawndart
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VFAT 2007

Post by Lawndart » Sun May 27, 2007 12:03 pm

...continued from the "hijacked" VRA thread; turned sub-topic VFAT 2007: Click here to read previous posts from the old thread!

Let's discuss anything regarding VFAT 2007 here for now!

The problem is not the number of servers or their availability for others to use. The servers themselves don't need any mods what-so-ever installed. Only need minimal admin setup before each sortie, to each teams liking, such as collisions on/off, unlimited weapons, fuel, labels and more. The real problem is for all the people viewing who need to have the mod(s) installed properly to see each team and their airplane or colors! Since there are so many teams flying non-flyables using the F-15 or SU-27, and until this point we've had one VFAT mod - but seems like this year we'll need to have more than one mod, which means all the spectators and participants will have to install/uninstall various mods during the event itself. That's issue number one!

Problem number two is trying to find a weekend that works for everyone, let alone two weekends! That might be hard, if down right almost impossible, considering family, kids, real life, work and other plans that typically fall on weekends. At this time I think the best sollution sounds like two mods (one eastern and one western) for simplicity. Any time you're on a eastern (European) server you use the eastern mod and any time you're on a western (US) server, you use the western mod. Any team performing on the west side of the pond will use a US server and any team on the east side of the pond, should use a European server!

On top of that I think demo teams of 3 or more pilots using some type of formation aerobatics should get first priority for time slots during the day. Solo acts or teams not able to show with more than 2 pilots would fall into a lower priority for time slots. Since VFAT is increasing both in popularity and participation, might as well consider it an all day event or meet, but the primetime slots need to be considered for the teams that have more complete lineup and aerobatic coreography! Solos would fill in the "blanks" or get the off peak hour slots this way. I feel this makes most sense, because logistically it is a lot harder to plan for a 6-ship aerial demo, considering you have 6+ people who need to re-arrange their lives accordingly, spread across multiple time zones over a period of several days leading up to the event for practice as well. Solo acts only have to coordinate with themselves for practice and personal schedule, and therefore ought to be offered the last remaining time slots ("blanks") or least desired slots by the other demo teams. That's IMHO...
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STRIKER
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Post by STRIKER » Sun May 27, 2007 1:55 pm

I think to satisfy the growing lomac VFAT demand we simply need to have more than just one VFAT a year. Its what they did for the LLTM and its growing even more popular now, why not do the same for VFAT?
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Post by Rhino » Sun May 27, 2007 2:43 pm

STRIKER wrote:I think to satisfy the growing lomac VFAT demand we simply need to have more than just one VFAT a year. Its what they did for the LLTM and its growing even more popular now, why not do the same for VFAT?
Would your idea be that some teams perform at one VFAT, and then you if you performed at that 1st VFAT, you wouldn't perform at the 2nd?

I personally like seeing the European teams as much as possible, as its something new.
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Post by STRIKER » Sun May 27, 2007 2:57 pm

NO

My idea is to have VFAT maybe twice a year instead of once to satisfy the growing demands of the new teams. I encourage new formation teams and dont want this to become a popularity contest but rather and even that showcases every well established team out there in that we arent leaving anyone out.
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Post by [SH]Falcon » Sun May 27, 2007 3:14 pm

STRIKER wrote:I think to satisfy the growing lomac VFAT demand we simply need to have more than just one VFAT a year. Its what they did for the LLTM and its growing even more popular now, why not do the same for VFAT?

LLTM is one time a year. The last was on april 2007, the next will be on april 2008. :roll:
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Post by Rotorblade » Sun May 27, 2007 3:58 pm

More than one VFAT or something of its nature is in order to accommodate the growing Virtual Aerobatics community within Lock On.

It seems there are few ways to go about this. One is to have a single VFAT weekend and have multiple mods for people to install like LD said and having two different servers. Two is to have separate VFAT dates throughout the year which will host one of the F-15FM squads. There is no getting around having to install different mod packages due to the overuse of the F-15 flight model. Both Striker and LD have great points!

What about the idea of taking advantage of the AI managed F-16 and F-18 flight models? Has either the VBA or VTB tried to fly a high show with one of these? A big problem along with the FM being different is the cockpit position which is another question I have, can these cockpit positions be defined in the server.lua like the regular flight models. If any of this could be done than we could free up the F-15 FM all together for a F-15 demonstration group or solo.

Here is a silly idea but how bought the use of the F-15 and just have one painted for the VTB, one painted for the VRA and one painted for the VBA. It would alleviate the problem of having to have different mods and then the only difference between the teams would be the paint scheme and the flying which is what ultimately will set you apart from the other teams in the end regardless of the 3D model. I know for a fact that if there is multiple mods that I among other people won't be changing mods just to see 3 different aerobatic teams fly the same flight model. I will just install the first vfat mod that is available and thats it. The flying and communications will set the teams apart from each other.

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For example last year I watched the IAT perform as the 3d model pictured above and it was actually more fun to watch. This year if there are 3 F-15 groups I may use that 3d model again for the F-15s because its just as silly as the fact that Lock On is not favorable for modifying as we would like.

Lock On is losing it's appeal because it is requires a hack-job in order to look a certain way while we formation fly. Frankly I can't wait for something else to come along that will support virtual formation flying teams better. My expectation for FighterOps is that it will be out sometime before the end of this decade and therefore I won't be disappointed unless it takes longer. FSX has many possibilities for formation flying but it takes more than pilot skills to get it up to speed because the need for good flight models and control settings which need extensive work if they aren't currently there in a nice payware or free addon.

Thats my two or three cents.

On a VFAT note the VSB should be there this year with a 50 minute high show based off of the 2006 Canadian Forces Snowbirds high show and we are happy to do it in the A-10 or the CT-114 3d model. :lol:
Last edited by Rotorblade on Sun May 27, 2007 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tailhook » Sun May 27, 2007 4:04 pm

STRIKER wrote:My idea is to have VFAT maybe twice a year instead of once to satisfy the growing demands of the new teams. I encourage new formation teams and dont want this to become a popularity contest but rather and even that showcases every well established team out there in that we arent leaving anyone out.
Practice: February 10-11
1st VFAT: February 17-18

Practice: November 10-11
2nd VFAT: November 17-18

Max of 6 demo squadrons and 2 solo's each....Blue Angels in February and Thunderbirds in November. :roll: :)

I dont know, mix it up :wink:
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Post by Rotorblade » Sun May 27, 2007 4:30 pm

The vtb could use something like this, man that looks sweet.
http://www.virtual-jabog32-mirror2.de/_ ... _id589.jpg

The Red Arrows could use something like this.
http://www.virtual-jabog32-mirror2.de/_ ... _id590.jpg

And I am sure there could be a sharp looking VBA skin for the F-15.

All three teams could actually fly together or live in the same VFAT mod.
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Post by Lawndart » Sun May 27, 2007 5:09 pm

Sorry RB, but I would rather go through the hassle of seeing each team as they, themselves intended to be seen! I appreciate the work the modders put into their paintschemes and airplanes. That's just me!

Secondly, flying anything but an F-16 for us... NO! Not only does it change muscle memory since the Viper is so much smaller than most other models, but it changes sight pictures (i.e. much of our training), in which rivets to line up and what not... and all to fly something that doesn't accurately respresent what we're about. Besides, I'd rather see the VSB in their Tutors than anything else too! :)

Honestly, if someone chooses not to install the correct mod because of their own laziness, it's their loss or choice (whichever), but I'd rather have the option to have each team fly the model, paintscheme and flight model they use daily (some which match real life counterparts) available for those who want to see the show as it was meant to be during VFAT!


Viper, that's about the most brilliant thing I think I've seen you post! :wink: Having two events 6 months apart would solve many problems and personally, I think there are enough US and European teams to split the event into VFAT-Europe and VFAT-America...
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Post by Tailhook » Sun May 27, 2007 5:12 pm

Lawndart wrote:Viper, that's about the most brilliant thing I think I've seen you post! :wink: Having two events 6 months apart would solve many problems and personally, I think there are enough US and European teams to split the event into VFAT-Europe and VFAT-America...
:mrgreen: :lol: (some of us are smart also you know ;))
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Post by Rhino » Sun May 27, 2007 5:18 pm

Rotorblade wrote:What about the idea of taking advantage of the AI managed F-16 and F-18 flight models? Has either the VBA or VTB tried to fly a high show with one of these?
Not a chance
Rotorblade wrote:Here is a silly idea but how bought the use of the F-15 and just have one painted for the VTB, one painted for the VRA and one painted for the VBA. It would alleviate the problem of having to have different mods and then the only difference between the teams would be the paint scheme and the flying which is what ultimately will set you apart from the other teams in the end regardless of the 3D model.
I disagree, and I don't see this happening. The formations are also offset more for one team to another. (Different paint being flown) So therefore, what looks good to us in Blue and Gold F-18s, might look utterly hideous in Hawks or F-16s. Seeing how our new F-18 model was started in August, and after months of continual work by Kato, our model is still being worked on.

I also have a lot of pride seeing that No. 1 on my twin tails, and I like showing that to as many people as possible. I am sure the VTB take a lot of pride showing their numbers, especially STRIKER's upside down 5 on his intake.
Rotorblade wrote:I know for a fact that if there is multiple mods that I among other people won't be changing mods just to see 3 different aerobatic teams fly the same flight model. I will just install the first vfat mod that is available and thats it. The flying and communications will set the teams apart from each other.


Again, read my above response. If there are true aviation fans out there flying lockon and want things to look right to themselves at VFAT, they will take the 2 minutes it takes to uninstall a mod in LoMan, and then reinstall a different one. Lets not get TOO lazy.

Rotorblade wrote:Lock On is losing it's appeal because it is requires a hack-job in order to look a certain way while we formation fly. Frankly I can't wait for something else to come along that will support virtual formation flying teams better. My expectation for FighterOps is that it will be out sometime before the end of this decade and therefore I won't be disappointed unless it takes longer. FSX has many possibilities for formation flying but it takes more than pilot skills to get it up to speed because the need for good flight models and control settings which need extensive work if they aren't currently there in a nice payware or free addon.
We can keep bickering and debating about how bad lock on is, but, for someone who has tried putting demos together in F4AF, FS9, and FSX, there is still no better sim out there. If not the flying aspect, the eye candy and the ability to watch the jets fly around as if it were a real airshow. You just cant get that with other sims.
Rotorblade wrote:And I am sure there could be a sharp looking VBA skin for the F-15.
Sorry, we fly blue and gold F-18s. Nothing else besides possibly a certain other aircraft....but thats another story...
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Post by Tailhook » Sun May 27, 2007 5:20 pm

Rhino wrote:Nothing else besides possibly a certain other aircraft....but thats another story...
Blue Angel F-4 Phantom's by any chance??? :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Rhino » Sun May 27, 2007 5:22 pm

Viper101 wrote:
Rhino wrote:Nothing else besides possibly a certain other aircraft....but thats another story...
Blue Angel F-4 Phantom's by any chance??? :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I can tell you its definitely a jet made by McDonnell-Douglas
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Post by Lawndart » Sun May 27, 2007 5:23 pm

I'd say the A-4 Skyhawk! 8)
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Post by Tailhook » Sun May 27, 2007 5:26 pm

half expected something like these...

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:D
Last edited by Tailhook on Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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