Brainstorming on an Aerobatics Module for Fighter Ops

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Pacman
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Brainstorming on an Aerobatics Module for Fighter Ops

Post by Pacman » Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:17 am

Hi all,

My name is Dirk Verbist and I am an executive of Xtreme Simulations Intl.

As some are allready aware, we are developing a new flight simulation, mainly aimed towards the hardcore crowd.

To get some good idea's for the main body of our flightsim we gathered idea's from the passionate community. Afterall this is a committed community and they know what they want.
After gathering the idea's we took those at heart that aided us to reach the goals we have set for the flightsim.

We are allready have professional contacts with the Virtual Thunderbirds who are helping us on this subject.

Now I would like to start a brainstorm session on what an aerobatics module should contain to make it succesfull.

This can go from visual aids, to training, support features like ingame recording,....you name it.
Basically anything you can come up with regarding this topic.

Please spread the word on this brainstorm session so we can gather a maximum of information.

People that wish to contact me directly can do so through my email.

Now what is it that according to YOUR idea's would make an aerobatics module perfect??

Sincerely,
Dirk "Pacman" Verbist
XSI Executive - VP (Q&A/ FM)
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x15
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Post by x15 » Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:27 am

Hi all,

My name is Dirk Verbist and I am an executive of Xtreme Simulations Intl.

As some are allready aware, we are developing a new flight simulation, mainly aimed towards the hardcore crowd.


Are you inferring about Fighter Ops?
To get some good idea's for the main body of our flightsim we gathered idea's from the passionate community. Afterall this is a committed community and they know what they want.
After gathering the idea's we took those at heart that aided us to reach the goals we have set for the flightsim.
Why is there nothing on the main page of FighterOps.com about its release date, is this not a goal?
We are allready have professional contacts with the Virtual Thunderbirds who are helping us on this subject.


Now I would like to start a brainstorm session on what an aerobatics module should contain to make it succesfull.
Haven't you already done this with the Virtual Thunderbirds?

This can go from visual aids, to training, support features like ingame recording,....you name it.
Basically anything you can come up with regarding this topic.
Most of major virtual aerobatic teams have well organized training documents available either publicly or not. It may be a good step to approach those organizations and see if they would grant you access to such documents. They also have plenty of videos and other training tools.
Please spread the word on this brainstorm session so we can gather a maximum of information.
This website and other virtual team websites suit the needs of this brainstorm session very well with the information that they contain.

Now what is it that according to YOUR idea's would make an aerobatics module perfect??
- Emphasis on being a part of a team.
- Some sort of organized tutorial
- Communication, callouts, etc.
- Procedures / Manuevers
- tips and tricks
- Timing
- Setting Goals
- Practice missions ranging from basic manuevers to advanced that allow for consistant training.
- A way to record, play back, fast forward, and rewind of video tracks for debriefing.

Thanks,
X15
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein.
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Lawndart
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Post by Lawndart » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:19 am

X15,

What kind of response is that to a developer asking for feedback from the people (community) who in the end will be using the product. :?

Some good points at the end though! :)

To answer a few of your follow-up questions:
  1. Fighter Ops is the simulator.
  2. Maybe they don't know the release date? Instead of overshooting proposed release dates, why not keep everyone informed on progress (which coincidentally is what XSI has been doing the entire time... hint hint! :wink: ).
  3. Whether, XSI has asked the VTB for feedback already or not is beside the point. They are asking everybody who wants to get their two cents in now!
  4. I doubt they are interested in the virtual aerobatic teams syllabi or docs, but rather what kind of training features, likes, dislikes of current sims, making a "wish-list", thinking outside the box can you provide for them being one of the people who live, breath and sleep virtual aerobatics! This could help them make an aero platform along side the combat modules and realism used for that (incl. pilot training such as UPT, IFF).
  5. There have already been other posts around the community on other sites and forums.
"Customers will ensure Fighter Ops constantly evolves into the ultimate combat flight simulator, made by enthusiasts—for enthusiasts!" - That's straight from a press release by XSI. This is their goal and while I'll let the devs themselves answer any specifics on release dates or other concrete questions, don't expect just one release! There should be several modules and builds continuously improving and adding features as far as we all know, including, (more) new scenery, capabilities and aircraft along with their real-life training structure and operation. One of these features is the AERO (short for aerobatic) module that Pacman is looking for feedback on from the community. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me! ...and here's your chance to have the developers listen and take notes on what we all have to say so they can work on the coding blocks for some of these features to be added...

Basically what this module could do is add features specific to aerobatic flying, drop bandwidth used for weapons modeling for increased netcode and smoothness as well as x-mitted effects and graphics. Training could include backseater (B/D-model capabilities), ghosting and visual aids that could be turned off once mastered. Extensive joystick and input devices setup with fine-tuned graphs for curves, shift and much more. Aircraft trim behavior being both precise and realistic since nose-down trim is essential for this type of flying etc. Take it away guys! Keep the comments coming! :D

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Post by x15 » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:42 am

Lawndart wrote:What kind of response is that to a developer asking for feedback from the people who in the end will be using the product.
I realize my reply contained some dangerous questions that would spark conversation and that they did, thank you for blasting my reply and if you have to ask what kind of response that was to a developer it was feedback plus questions.

x15
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Lawndart
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Post by Lawndart » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:51 am

Wasn't meant to be personal. Been a long day...

Keep the comments coming! :wink:
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Post by Gunner » Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:14 am

Pacman -
I'm sure you have received some very insightful suggestions from members of the team already, but I will try to add a couple that I feel would be helpful to me.

Because we lack some of the sensory inputs that IRL pilots receive, I'd like to see an effort to substitute - and I'm specifically thinking of g force indicators other than blacking out. As a high g maneuver is initiated, we only have the HUD to indicate g force until we go so far tunnel vision and blackout is simulated. What I'm thinking, is maybe some visual indicator(color change, brightness, whatever), that would give us visual clues without having to look at that little number on the HUD, and would indicate g forces less than those close to physical limits, without restricting our vision.

Another help would be accurate simulation of wind noise to give clues to airspeed other than instuments and HUD.

Multiple monitor, multiple view support would be very helpful, and this next one may be a pipe dream, but what about picture-in-picture for those without multiple monitors?

Flexible camera angles and camera motion.

...and can we get one of those big red "easy" buttons that will just anchor me to Boss's wing? - just kidding. :D
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Post by Rhino » Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:50 am

Obviously support for such instruments as TrackIR. I think people would also like to see individual support for individual flight controllers (Cougar, X52, X45, etc)....such as there is a combat mode pre-programed in the game for the controls, as well as an aerobatic mode (i.e. smoke, boards, gear, etc)

Just some thoughts,
Screenies and sight looks great Pacman!

Happy Flying!
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lqcorsa
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Post by lqcorsa » Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:19 pm

I got a few...

Ability to fly in same cockpit on multiplayer (backseat)

Include paint's for aerobatic teams (eg: T-Birds, B-Angels ect.)

Awesome Single Player Campaign, with different, selectable roles that change the way the missions are handled (USAF, USM, USN)

Multiplayer Campaign

I noticed in the screenshots area, a Thunderbirds hanger, how about a Blue Angels hanger? :D

Carrier qualified aircraft (harrier, hornet, super hornet) with obviously an aircraft carrier or 2.

Tailhooks on runways for emergency

Air Traffic Control

Very high multiplayer stability, to ensure easy formations that simulators such as Lock-On.

The rest looks good XSI, keep up the good work.
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Jonnyb
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Post by Jonnyb » Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:35 pm

Ok heres my ideas...

1. The flight model to be much better and realistic compared to it in lock on.

2. The Red Arrows hawk and skin.

3. The Freece Tricolori Jet and skin.

4. The Patrouille De France jet and skin.

5. The ability to have smoke on, on the ground (Jet effect like the smoke being blown away by the jet exaust, air and ground)

6. The smoke to be just as realistic as this....
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And thats it!
hehe but my absolute desiers are (1,2,5 and 6)
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My ideas

Post by zaGURUinzaSKY » Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:27 pm

Hallo PacMan and thanx a lot to give us the opportunity to contribute to the develope of the sim.

Question:
The aerobatic module is intended to give the teams a tool to fly formation or it also include a training module from beginner to formation pilot?

I mean, do you also want to teach formation or you just provide the tool to do it?

About the training school it would be cool to ask to the real teams (I can help you in finding contacts of some pilots of Frecce Tricolori).

About the aerobatic module here I write some ideas. (some are important some not)

- Dedicated server (fastest home ADSL in my country only has 256Kb of upload )

- Possibility to fly inside a previously recorded track, recording again a new track (good example in COndor Soaring Simulator, they call it ghost, you can do a 5 ship display by youself recording 5 times a track). It would be great becouse people can follow the lead of my track and do training offline

-integrated voice comms

-Tower view with autozoom (as many RC flight Sims with the aircraft positioned on top side of monitor) with video recorder (wanna see how the people see my flight in the most realistic way)

-Online profile of players (as in Battlefield), the more you pull Gs, the more your body (account) can resists to them. And when you reinstall you do't loose your account.

-Ground objects for visual reference (Frecce Tricolori in real airshows uses big colored air baloons placed on the ground).

-Parametric curve of throttle axis (I can decide if from 30% to 80% of my throttle controls just 70% to 90% of RPM), very usefull becouse many people have small built in throttle control in the joystick, easier to manage power in formation.

-Good templates for skin making (gotta be easy to understand how the parts are displaced)

-Limited smoke liquid (not unlimited smoke as in lock on. so that we have to consider smoke management), and double colors (with double controls).

- Aircraft turbolence, vortex and all those stuff

- Good engine sounds ( gotta be clear how I am moving the throttle)

- ATC for the formation as a single flight, ability to select the correct answer to the atc with a up donw button (not just numbers as in FS2004, I'd like to do it on my hotas even if I have 15 possible answers)

- Realistic stalls and sideslips.

- Realistic Rudder

-Voice comms beeper, a tool that do a loud Beep when you release the voice button to synchronize the action called, the host should hear the beep in the same moment of clients (considering the avarage ping) to make sure he starts when the wingmen start. Red Arrows use the beep. The delay beep for leader is just an adaptation to simulated flight.

-A track cursor position control, I want to rewind and see how we did that loop dozens of times.


I'm sure I have more ideas, these are the first part.
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lqcorsa
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Post by lqcorsa » Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:44 pm

Hey cool its #1 from IAT :D

As cool as some of the Soviet planes are, I'm not sure they will include them as flyable aircraft, unless the SDK will allow development of one. I agree with the smoke on ground, being blown away by the jet blast, and also the realistic stalls. The way you just loose all control over your plane, and just do a frozen dive to the ground in lock-on, is very frustrating, and the way the smoke looks all wierd and dissapears when you stall. I also didn't know they will have an aerobatics module. Kewl :P !
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Post by Pacman » Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:28 pm

Wow guy's....blown away by this.

Spending some time on vacation in a holliday parc.
Yup wireless internet all over the place....much to regret of the wife :wink:

Anyway, just to let you know I'm going to take my time tomorow to go over the whole thread and give you answers to questions that came up.
I will also record all the suggestions/ idea's and categorise them into my documents. In due time everything will be discussed with the dev team on what the possibilities will be and we'll start prioritising certain items over others.

Know that this information is important to us.
Mainly because certain things need to be taken into account in the coding that we are allready doing. Even if it isn't for the aerobatics module specifically yet.

Let me explain.

A simple example is the recording feature.
It is allready planned for the initial releases... for the aerobatics module it get's even more important.

So learning every idea you gentlemen have on it now can help us design/ prepare this part of the sim to the best of our abilities so we have less work later on.

It is easier to keep this into account right now while we are making something from scratch, then having to add it later on when you made the stupidity of not taking it into account earlier. The last is a lot harder to do.

So please keep this all comming.

Sincerely,

Dirk
Dirk "Pacman" Verbist
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Lawndart
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Re: My ideas

Post by Lawndart » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:29 pm

zaGURUinzaSKY wrote:integrated voice comms
Built-in "teamspeak or equivalent to sync up game lag and VOIP lag! Definitely!
-Tower view with autozoom (as many RC flight Sims with the aircraft positioned on top side of monitor) with video recorder (wanna see how the people see my flight in the most realistic way)
Auto-zoom sounds like a nice feature! Being able to set a certain distance and speed that the external cam will start zooming at and then have it be pulg-and-play, so you can follow the padlocked external view without having to "guess" when to zoom or how fast it will happen. Good point!
-Parametric curve of throttle axis (I can decide if from 30% to 80% of my throttle controls just 70% to 90% of RPM), very usefull becouse many people have small built in throttle control in the joystick, easier to manage power in formation.
Good idea for the people who don't have a HOTAS setup. Being able to manipulate the range of the throttle arm and how much it represents in rpm (hence, more precise throttle control, especially for non HOTAS users).
- ATC for the formation as a single flight, ability to select the correct answer to the atc with a up donw button (not just numbers as in FS2004, I'd like to do it on my hotas even if I have 15 possible answers)
I have always disliked the menu systems. If voice recognition can be implemented, having a transparent "commands window" fade-in and a voice response used to select would be much nicer than mapping keys.
-Voice comms beeper, a tool that do a loud Beep when you release the voice button to synchronize the action called, the host should hear the beep in the same moment of clients (considering the avarage ping) to make sure he starts when the wingmen start. Red Arrows use the beep. The delay beep for leader is just an adaptation to simulated flight.
How about built-in VOIP synced to the average ping of the flight. No beep would be required. If implemented, the beep would have to be an option, not be nature...

Good stuff Guru!
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Post by zaGURUinzaSKY » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:26 pm

How about built-in VOIP synced to the average ping of the flight. No beep would be required. If implemented, the beep would have to be an option, not be nature...
The beep helps me to know when the duudes receive the GO! example: I say "coming right", release the radio key, and when I hear the beep I know it's time to turn. The beep arrives to me with a bit of delay considering when it'll arrive to the guys.. that's what I meant..
At the moment is difficult to estimate when they receive it.. I know it's about 3/4 of seconds to 1 second but it's always approximative.

ciao !
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Post by red8jon » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:23 am

I hope this is the right place to put it:

- I also support the idea of having a Red Arrow Hawk & Skin

- The idea of being able to fly, save the replay and then fly again with that replay. (if you see what I mean) because then that way you can practice offline without having to find a buddy to fly at the same time. You could then perform loops and rolls as the leader - save it - and then fly again but as the wingman so you can practice flying formation aerobatics.

Just an idea, if you dont understand I can try to explain it again...
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