I think we were naturally thinking of smaller scale operation... At least I was. When it's put in that light, I can't help but agree. But if we're talking about a small regional jet, I wouldn't think many FO's would have 10,000 hours... a fair assumption, right? What is the difference between 1,000 and 1,500 hours, and what is GOOD training worth? (Most people won't give you a straight answer, because most people are selling something.)
The things that bother me about this career path aren't pay or stability so much as getting into the business itself. Certainly a small window, and flight instruction seems to be one of a few ways to get the amount of hours one needs to be a viable hire. 500 hours may seem like a drop in the bucket to you, Cobra, but of course from the ground floor, that equates to a hefty cost.
Edit: I mean seriously, I'm as broke as you might want to imagine... 1,500 a month sounds like it's raining green on Ray right now.
It's interesting to note... there are a lot of Navy fleet pilots with about 1,500 hours who are qualified to jump into a blue and gold jet and fly in what I think to be one of the most demanding non-combat aviation environments I've learned even a little about. Of course, their training is much more intense and of guaranteed (high) quality. Just interesting to think about what good training means to the military, at least.
Tentatively hired by ATP flight school
Re: Tentatively hired by ATP flight school
Ironically enough, I have given strong consideration to this school. Tampa is a location farther from me and Jacksonville looks closer. If you were my instructor, it would not be instructing, it would be doing a mini-Thunderbirds routine. LOL! Congratulations!Ray wrote:Got a call a few days ago from John Amico, the chief pilot for all of ATP (23 facilities nationwide). He offered me a slot in the January 31st instructor standardization class in Jacksonville, Fla. It's a 2 to 3 week course.
Afterwards I'll either remain there and work in the call center until a spot opens up at my facility of choice (KLZU, Lawrenceville) or I go somewhere else and transfer later. I hear that there's a spot available at KLZU and that no one in my class is wanting that, so I hope it works out!
I completed my commercial multi-instrument add-on and multi engine instructor ratings with ATP here in Lawrenceville, Ga. back in Oct. and Nov. My examiner for both rides was apparently impressed with my performance and said he'd like to see me become an instructor for ATP. He put in a good word or two as did a few of the instructors I flew with. I believe those recommendations helped me immensely - as they usually only hire graduates from their Airline Career Pilot program.
I currently have 600 TT and 22 multi - but according to instructors at the KLZU facility, they log around 80 to 100 hours a month in the Seminole. That's a ton of multi-time! I'm pretty excited and anxious at the same time, it's an intense 2-3 weeks and they want you to know their procedures cold - so I'll be studying my ass off in the mean time!
I understand that regional ops are different to the situation I operate under. In Qantas everyone starts as a second officer regardless of their previous experience. Second officers are there to act as relief pilots on long sectors and they are also there to learn the airline operations. Provided you don't spend too long in the position, it is an ideal way to start off.
Regional airlines cannot afford that luxury. What I say is that the GA path, the one you are both doing now, will equip you far better in an overall airmanship sense, than a 200 hour rote learning cadet course.
The cadets fly fine in routine situations. Most flying is routine. If a cadet does not encounter a potential disaster in their first two years of flying they will generally develop into a good FO and from then on, a good command pilot.
But as a captain, if faced with a dire emergency like the QF A380 out of Singapore last year, I would much prefer the 10,000 ex-GA FO and the 8,000 hour ex fighter pilot SO that were on the crew than a 200 hour unknown entity that some airlines may think will cope as well. They won't and it won't be their fault. But it could make the difference between people living and dying.
Regional airlines cannot afford that luxury. What I say is that the GA path, the one you are both doing now, will equip you far better in an overall airmanship sense, than a 200 hour rote learning cadet course.
The cadets fly fine in routine situations. Most flying is routine. If a cadet does not encounter a potential disaster in their first two years of flying they will generally develop into a good FO and from then on, a good command pilot.
But as a captain, if faced with a dire emergency like the QF A380 out of Singapore last year, I would much prefer the 10,000 ex-GA FO and the 8,000 hour ex fighter pilot SO that were on the crew than a 200 hour unknown entity that some airlines may think will cope as well. They won't and it won't be their fault. But it could make the difference between people living and dying.
I'm glad I instructed (and starved)! Looking back, being a CFI helped tremendeously in developing confidence and knowledge. I felt I knew everything pretty well as a fresh multi-engine commercial pilot, but until you start instructing you just don't know what you don't know (same as when you get your first airline job). I can't imagine going to a jet in an airline environment with 200 hours of piston time... It is still a steep learning curve for anyone with 1,000 hours, and you will feel like you're holding on to the vertical stabilizer on your first go around, since that's how far behind the plane you'll be.
The concept of don't fly anywhere your brain didn't arrive five minutes ago only works so well in theory until you get some experience. Unfortunately, good judgement comes from experience and experience usually comes from bad judgement.
As said though, it's not the quantity of time that really matters, but the quality of time. Tough to compare different types of flying on the same scale - apples and oranges! Cobra is right though, I just don't know what the solution is...
I've been there, I'm still there, and the only sound advice for others is, don't become a pilot. Yet, to quote Leonardo Da Vinci:
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always long to return."
The concept of don't fly anywhere your brain didn't arrive five minutes ago only works so well in theory until you get some experience. Unfortunately, good judgement comes from experience and experience usually comes from bad judgement.
As said though, it's not the quantity of time that really matters, but the quality of time. Tough to compare different types of flying on the same scale - apples and oranges! Cobra is right though, I just don't know what the solution is...
I've been there, I'm still there, and the only sound advice for others is, don't become a pilot. Yet, to quote Leonardo Da Vinci:
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always long to return."
One thing's for certain... nobody heads for this career for the pay or hours. 
Last edited by Beaker on Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And another thing to remember is that the low pay and crappy working conditions aren't forever. Lifetime earnings for airline pilots are still relatively high compared to many other jobs out there; assuming you don't get furloughed, and make it to the majors.
A captain on the MD-11 for FedEx or UPS does pretty well, and that's where I'll be eventually.
A captain on the MD-11 for FedEx or UPS does pretty well, and that's where I'll be eventually.
Been very busy down here. Working the call center, flying, simming or studying, hardly any free time. I did have Sunday off, which was nice.
I've successfully completed my sim evaluation blocks, took about 6 hours - was pretty intense.
Completed my proficiency flight and eval flight in the 172, and had a great proficiency flight in the Seminole today with the stands instructor. Some of my classmates had a bad proficiency flight and didn't get signed off, so they'll have to go up for another one before they can take their eval flight - some had a tough time with the sim as well. I think we'll all make it through though.
Hoping to get my eval flight with John Amico knocked out in the next day or two - then I hope to be on my way to my desired training location.
I've successfully completed my sim evaluation blocks, took about 6 hours - was pretty intense.
Completed my proficiency flight and eval flight in the 172, and had a great proficiency flight in the Seminole today with the stands instructor. Some of my classmates had a bad proficiency flight and didn't get signed off, so they'll have to go up for another one before they can take their eval flight - some had a tough time with the sim as well. I think we'll all make it through though.
Hoping to get my eval flight with John Amico knocked out in the next day or two - then I hope to be on my way to my desired training location.
Sounds great Ray!
I know how exciting it is to land that first paying gig. My first CFI job paid $7/hour plus $400/month to teach ground school. We flew about 50 hours a month and had to work 6 days a week! Oh, the good 'ole days.
The 1500 hour legislation will undoubtedly slow the process for guys like you, and I know that's hard to swallow. Ultimately, that rule will make your career and mine far better, although you may not see it now. The lack of passenger demand after 9/11 allowed airlines to re-task RJ's to former mainline routes, and led to tremendous growth at the regionals. Pay and working conditions were so bad, they had to lower the minimums to fill the seats, and here we are. Higher FO minimums are going to force the regional airlines to make the job more attractive, and will ultimately reset the imbalance we've seen in the industry for 10 years.
If it happens like I hope, the regional airline job will be a 1500-3000 experience builder so you can make the jump to a better career at the majors.
This isn't a knock on regional pilots at all. I would have done that job in a second if I hadn't lucked out with another opportunity when I had 1500 hours. It's just unfortunate that the airlines have capitalized on the fact that we like flying airplanes.
I know how exciting it is to land that first paying gig. My first CFI job paid $7/hour plus $400/month to teach ground school. We flew about 50 hours a month and had to work 6 days a week! Oh, the good 'ole days.
The 1500 hour legislation will undoubtedly slow the process for guys like you, and I know that's hard to swallow. Ultimately, that rule will make your career and mine far better, although you may not see it now. The lack of passenger demand after 9/11 allowed airlines to re-task RJ's to former mainline routes, and led to tremendous growth at the regionals. Pay and working conditions were so bad, they had to lower the minimums to fill the seats, and here we are. Higher FO minimums are going to force the regional airlines to make the job more attractive, and will ultimately reset the imbalance we've seen in the industry for 10 years.
If it happens like I hope, the regional airline job will be a 1500-3000 experience builder so you can make the jump to a better career at the majors.
This isn't a knock on regional pilots at all. I would have done that job in a second if I hadn't lucked out with another opportunity when I had 1500 hours. It's just unfortunate that the airlines have capitalized on the fact that we like flying airplanes.
