New Here - Lock On... F-16... realism?

[FALL3N]

Hello guys I came across your site VIA external link. I was actually serching for FSX air file explanations because the graphs and numbers didn't match any real data I have on certian aircraft. Thing is I was sent directly to a thread where it showed Gunner's pit (DROOL AND OBSCENELY COVETING IT!) and got a little more intrested so I came back today with time permitting and seen a bunch of your air show videos. I must say you guys are very talented and work great as a team. Then I looked around more, and this is more to my point of starting a new thread. I seen the post where Lawngnome I mean Dart said that FSX was craptastic, well maybe not those exact words but you get my point. Thing is this is coming from a real pilot. So, I guess for me tring to "mod" my way to more realisim I found that you guys are using Lock On. I have never delved into Lock On or anything from Eagle Dynamics. So, I guess I am kind of asking all the real world pilots here if Lock On or any of the DCS series will quinch my thirst for realisim more so than FSX? I was in the Air Force myself stationed in McConnel AFB, Kansas and from the time I was 5 my favorite plane has always been the F-16 and have the Aerosoft addon for FSX, but you really can not perform and snap tacticle or demonstration manuvers like you guys were doing in those vids with out overstressing the craft in FSX. I do know that DCS series hasn't got the F-16 yet, so what is a extreamly good recomendation for a sim to get a really really good F-16 that has all the avionics working (bells and wistles)?

Again I know this is long winded, but you guys have seriously impressed me so I had to put my kudos and questions in all the same post sorry.

Regards,
FALL3N

[Grab]

I both Lockon and FSX and I can tell you that the airplanes in Lockon fly so much closer to real airplanes it's quite astonishing. Flying in FSX I always feel like the airplanes, especially the high performance stuff, are just sliding around the sky with super rocket engines. In Lockon, however, the airplanes actually feel like they are flying to me, they bleed airspeed under G, the engines actually have spool up times, you can feel the difference in the performance when you change the airplanes weight. Lockon may not offer clickable cockpits and all that, but it does offer jets that fly a heck of a lot closer to real jets than FSX jets do.

If you are looking for a Viper sim, look no further than Falcon 4.0 - It's a little old but by far the best, most accurate Viper sim you could ever hope for.

Intro Video:


It's also been taken under the wings of the modding community, which has released countless updates and addons, Free Falcon, Open Falcon to name a few.

Here is some Open Falcon footage:

[Beaker]

To be fair, the flight dynamics in Falcon are ancient and currently not representative of the kind of standards we expect lately. But on paper, it's as close as you will find! Just don't expect things like adverse yaw, roll inertia/coupling, hydraulics, etc. It's still hands-down the best F-16 simulator in history.

If you like the A-10, however, get ready for ED's new simulator, DCS A-10C, set to release very late this year. It looks like it will be one of the highest fidelity simulators ever made, certainly the greatest A-10 simulator.

[Lawndart]

Fall3n, thanks for stopping by and welcome to our forums!

I'm actually in the middle of pilot training in the real world, so I won't have much time to respond, but the Virtual Blues guys summed it up pretty well. Don't get me wrong, FSX is and has always been great for civillian aviation, add-ons, extensive scenery and even to a great extent cockpit procedures and simulating real world flying... EXCEPT when it comes to military jets! I would hands down pick almost any "combat sim" over MSFS if my intent was to fly high performance tactical fighters.

Falcon 4 (still) is king when it comes to F-16 "realism".

Lock On, Flaming Cliffs (2) and DCS, all by Eagle Dynamics, may not have the same fidelity in systems and avionics as the other sims (aside from the DCS aircraft, which are the new breed in sims by ED) - but all their titles share one very important aspect of flight simming dating back to LOMAC and its predecessor, Flanker; it simulates the "sensation" of flight in high performance aircraft much better and the multiplayer is incredibly stable.

I wouldn't say FSX is horrible or bad, it's just not as well suited for flying tactical fighters and it's basically a civillian/general aviation sim at heart if you ask me. That said, I still squirm over some of those flight models too, while the scope of the world and sim at large is great.

Personally, as you can imagine, I get enough of that type of flying on the job which is why I gravitate to tactical jet fighter simulators whenever I find enough free time. (Oh, and let's not kid ourselves, jet aerobatics in particular takes a lot of practice... which sometimes has a tendency to interfere a little too much with our real lives, wives and social life ).

Lock On has been great for virtual aerobatics from day one, and it's only gotten better with each installment (i.e. FC, FC2, DCS series etc.) and it's also got a fairly steep learning curve for flying combat, but to date not as in depth as Falcon 4 (although that could soon change with DCS: A-10C).

Once again, thanks for your comments about us and welcome aboard!

[FALL3N]

Thanks for the input guys, I really appriciate it. But you know the Aerosoft F-16 wouldn't be that bad if they wouldn't have taken rudder control out so there is no way you can perform a knife edge manuver without crashing... I guess every payware maker has thier own opinion on how this amazing bird should fly, but in the end I have seen the aero data fom applied simulation (predicted) and aero data from the tunnel (actual). I also have data on a lot of different blocks also. I guess I am just a F-16 freak but I love it. Also btw I have some data on the F/A-18 if you guys need it but I am sure you probably have the same stuff that I do. I guess I'm just really a fast mover aviation nut. Also VBA, I have seen some of your guys' vids also great performance with those A-4's. I will give you a F-18 addon you guys might want to check out also it's made by Vertical Reality and from the reviews they seemed to have redone part of FSX's physics to get it to work right. I will post a vid of it as soon as I find one that goes over everything.

[Beaker]

Hi again Fall3n,

The Aerosoft F-16 is really gorgeous, but the handling is still very overdone. It doesn't bleed airspeed properly under G, and it accelerates just too quickly compared to a real Viper. I don't think it has any sort of G limiter, either. The knife edge is partially a quirk of FSX, although with the right FM programming, it seems like an aircraft can perform fairly well in knife edge. The real F-16 doesn't really like to sit in knife edge either, and relies on speed and actually a little optical illusion when you see one performed at an airshow.

Thanks for the compliment, I know Kato worked very hard on that A-4 video. We have a ton of information on the Hornet like you guessed, and I would say I'm about as fully hooked on that aircraft as one could be! I have Vertical Reality Simulation's F/A-18E and I must say while it is a beautiful labor of love, again the flight dynamics are off. While the Hornet does have fantastic rate capability, it can't turn that quickly! It doesn't seem to limit G either, and ridiculous alpha is available too immediately. I was able to flip the jet around 180 degrees at 500 knots almost instantly. Occasionally, it looks like the roll-rate is over-modeled as well. But, the flight model isn't what impresses me about the VRS Super Hornet, I'm floored by the attention to detail in the modeling, systems, and cockpit. As I understand it, it even has a 3rd-party FCS programmed! That's truly revolutionary. As with most simulated airplanes, you have to fly it realistically in order for it to handle realistically, and I'm okay with that. Under normal operation, that VRS Hornet has an awesome feel to it and the systems modeling makes for an excellent experience.

Like everyone has said, if you're a Viper nut, pick up Falcon! I did the Falcon thing for 6 years or so and it's still a king of simulators. Pick up Falcon 4.0 - Allied Force from Amazon.com. It should be cheap, and as versions of Falcon go, it's the most stable. It doesn't have all of the nitty gritty details of Open Falcon, but more than enough to keep you busy!


Regards,

[FALL3N]

Rgr that man, it also seems I am addicted to this site as I am able to view everyones vids. I however do not have that HOTAS Cougar either I am using a Cyborg X for now until I save enough money to get something that is going to be able to map a lot more functions for the aircraft. But I still have fun with what I have at the moment and to me that's what counts. But at this point in time I will not be able to do much demo flying in close quarters like that. And yes that DCS: A-10C does look extremely sweet. Waiting for it myself. Other than that I will have to wait to get Falcon or any of its addons as everyone knows not all of us are stable with work, but I do not let that hinder one of my favorite relaxing things to do. Also what is your take on the new HOTAS, any improvements over the Cougar?

I would love to start on a pit, but the links to all the gadgets are spread out and I also know people have asked before but tracking the information down in this forum takes a bit of time and that is something that is scarce around here. I guess I am suggesting maybe a locked thread with all the links to everything you need maybe? Again you guys are all great to anyone new and will recommend both the VTB and VBA to anyone intrested in getting trained in formation flying to be able to fly with you guys.

Regards,
FALL3N

[Lawndart]

Also what is your take on the new HOTAS, any improvements over the Cougar?

The "non-beta tester" reviews will be out soon enough, but if you want the inside scoop from our camp we've pretty much collectively determined that our expensively (FSSB- & Hall Sensor-) modded Cougars will most likely be collecting dust in our closets once the HOTAS Warthog is officially launched.

Click here for Ray's (p)review of the HW.

I would love to start on a pit, but the links to all the gadgets are spread out and I also know people have asked before but tracking the information down in this forum takes a bit of time and that is something that is scarce around here. I guess I am suggesting maybe a locked thread with all the links to everything you need maybe?

You just didn't look hard enough!

MOTHER OF ALL STICKIES

(You didn't think we'd miss a mundane detail like that, now did you? ).

[FALL3N]

LOL Thanks again Lawngnome...I mean dart.

[Ray]

Welcome to the forums! I echo what's been said above.

I have experience in FSX, way too many hours flying Falcon 4.0 and its variants over the years, and as of last year, started flying Lock On regularly when I joined the VTB.

Out of the three, Lock On feels the most realistic to me, it just behaves as you would expect a jet to behave. Falcon 4 isn't bad, but it is a dated flight model, still very convincing however. It's a blast to fly, I really loved the complexity of all of the systems/avionics.

Once you make your way up the very steep learning curve and really learn to use the jet effectively in a combat environment, the trip home after shacking some ground targets and a bandit or two makes for a very rewarding sim experience. I highly recommend it.

I have a feeling DCS: A-10C will be just as great - and you'll most certainly want to pair it up with a HOTAS Warthog