Inside view of TM HOTAS Warthog

Discussions about Cockpits, Joysticks & Setups
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Frazer
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Inside view of TM HOTAS Warthog

Post by Frazer » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:05 am

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Download high resolution pictures here.

My findings of the TM HOTAS Warthog as an experienced formation aerobatic pilot are not quite as satisfying as I hoped for.
The first thing I noticed is that the stick is not smooth when you give very small inputs. Inputs that are of high importance for formation leaders flying loops and barrel maneuvers with wingmen 3 feet of your wing.

Self test:
Pull the stick back as slowly as you can.
You will notice "bumps" which can described as "stickiness".

So, I decided to take a look inside of the TM Warthog stick to see what coused this. It became clear to me as soon as I found out that the ball joint (cap and ball) are both of plastic (yes, plastic!) and besides that, there is a large surface of contact between the two. Even though it is all greasy inside, I think this design is not as perfect as it appears to be.

TM claims that the 3D magnetic sensor has a surgical precision of 16-bit resolution (65536 x 65536 values) and I for sure believe that, though when the mechanical system doesn't allow you to make small adjustments because of lack of smoothness, the high resolution is rather pointless.

I'm hoping that this "stickiness" will dissapear over time, though most likely it will not. For now, it is impossible to fly as smooth as required as formation aerobatic leader.

At this point, I hate to admit that my 150 euro X52Pro allows me to fly more precise as a formation aerobatic leader.

For the rest, the TM HOTAS Warthog looks and feels awesome.

Advice for protential buyers:
Combat pilot: adviced
Solo aerobatic pilot: adviced
Formation wingman pilot: adviced
Formation leader: not adviced (problem most likely solved)
Frazer wrote:Good news, I have taken the grease of the spring and added it to the ball socket, now the stick is smoother. The question remains how long it will be this smooth.

I guess that the amount of grease differs on each unit, so if you encounter the stiction and you are bothered by it, you could open the stick *at your own risk* and do the same as I did.

If TM is paying attention here, it would be good not to save on grease at the production line.

I'm very happy to have made this "discovery" since I was afraid the 400 euro stick would not live up to all my requirements. For now, it does.

If someone knows what type of grease TM uses, please post it as it looks like we will need to add some grease every now and then.
Last edited by Frazer on Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lawndart
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Post by Lawndart » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:08 pm

Frazer wrote:For now, it is impossible to fly as smooth as required as formation aerobatic leader.
Pilot error. ;)

The notch/bump/stickiness you're talking about is only near the absolute center of the throw, and if you fly with nose down trim (as any experienced formation pilot would) you won't have any problems. I thought at first that I wouldn't like the notchiness near the center, but it actually provides some good tactile feedback for maneuvering. If you center mount the unit with proper forearm support (on your thigh), it's perfect for leading as well.


P.S. The actual controls are plastic (not metal). :P
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Post by Teej » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:16 pm

I had noticed that my preproduction stick was a bit sensitive to mounting position and more directly how much weight I was pushing down on the stick with. I honestly haven't seen the same in the production one. With the preprod, I got jerkiness when I was sitting in a way that had more of my arm weight resting on the stick, increasing friction.

There's an "O-ring" that forms the joint between the two pieces in your 3rd to last image (the joystick pivot cup and the bottom half of the thing with the white ring) that was hand-cut on my preproduction unit that contributed to the lack of smoothness as it didn't quite fit right.

After I figured that out and made slight adjustments to my seating position, I was leading Ray around with me in either the A-10 or F-15 and him in the F-16 and he had no difficulty parking his nose between my tails through formation rolls.

In other times leading, input smoothness is about the only thing they haven't torn me apart on. :D
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Post by Frazer » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:20 pm

The bumps appear over the whole range of the stick and I'm not the only one having this: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p ... ost1042575

As I fly the Su-27, there is no need to fly with trim down as at our speeds you are flying with the stick pulled already.

I do not fly with the stick in the center, but I do have perfect (even better than "flying off the thigh") support and position.

At this point, extending the stick with a metal tube seems to be the only solution to overcome the friction.
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Post by Grab » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:22 pm

Hmm, mine is smooth as glass.
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Post by Teej » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:42 pm

Grab wrote:Hmm, mine is smooth as glass.
Ditto.

I thought an early preprod model was a bit stictiony depending on how much weight I put on it, but my production unit is perfect.
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Post by Beaker » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:42 pm

Either way... thanks a ton for taking those awesome pictures! Very nice step-by-step dis-assembly with great photo quality. :D
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Post by Teej » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:48 pm

Beaker wrote:Either way... thanks a ton for taking those awesome pictures! Very nice step-by-step dis-assembly with great photo quality. :D
No doubt.

I took some junky photos of the guts back in May because I didn't want to dirty up my lightbox with the grease (or take the time to set it up since it was packed away pretty good at the time).

Illustrates quite well a point I've been making - that spring is _not_ going to soften up or break in any conceivable useful lifetime (barring the occasional flawed batch of steel that is - I'm just saying the spring itself should have a loooong life).
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Post by Frazer » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:59 am

I'm also sure that the Warthog is built to last long and all parts are of high quality. Besides that, there isn't any stick out there that is easier to disassemble.

If it only would not have the stiction at the smallests movements......

I will see if I can extend the stick with a metal tube. That will solve the problem for me I think. I'm also going to try different types and amounts of grease.

To start with, does anyone know what grease TM uses? I want to increase the amount of the exact same grease that the manufacturer used first, before trying any other grease.
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Post by Beaker » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:09 am

There's an interesting question!
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Post by Frazer » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:25 am

Good news, I have taken the grease of the spring and added it to the ball socket, now the stick is smoother. The question remains how long it will be this smooth.

I guess that the amount of grease differs on each unit, so if you encounter the stiction and you are bothered by it, you could open the stick *at your own risk* and do the same as I did.

If TM is paying attention here, it would be good not to save on grease at the production line.

I'm very happy to have made this "discovery" since I was afraid the 400 euro stick would not live up to all my requirements. For now, it does.

If someone knows what type of grease TM uses, please post it as it looks like we will need to add some grease every now and then.
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Post by Redeye » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:52 pm

Taking my stick apart from the top down to get to the ball and socket. The ball and socket are plastic and need lubrication to avoid stickiness.

My problem was guiding the wires through the ball when you re-assemble the stick. Note the outer ball has a rectangular protrusion that inserts into the inner ball. Also note it only goes in one way. There is a cut out in the inner ball to allow the wires to pass through without getting pinched. If you put it in backwards the wires will get pinched and the movement of the stick when flying will actually cut the wire.

This is what happened to me and I had to replace the ground wire.
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Post by Teej » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:18 pm

Redeye wrote:Taking my stick apart from the top down to get to the ball and socket. The ball and socket are plastic and need lubrication to avoid stickiness.

My problem was guiding the wires through the ball when you re-assemble the stick. Note the outer ball has a rectangular protrusion that inserts into the inner ball. Also note it only goes in one way. There is a cut out in the inner ball to allow the wires to pass through without getting pinched. If you put it in backwards the wires will get pinched and the movement of the stick when flying will actually cut the wire.

This is what happened to me and I had to replace the ground wire.
It's easier if you pull out the hall sensor...2 screws on the gray plastic insert.

I too had to replace the ground wire. :(
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Post by Lawndart » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:22 pm

Hey Teej, what's the name of the grease you use?
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Post by Teej » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:43 pm

Lawndart wrote:Hey Teej, what's the name of the grease you use?
I used Tamiya brand molybdenum grease...known to be plastic safe.
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