Saitek X65F - One word: AWESOME!

Discussions about Cockpits, Joysticks & Setups
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ggerman
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Saitek X65F - One word: AWESOME!

Post by ggerman » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:59 pm

My new Saitek X65F arrived today and after about one hour of using it, I can safely say that this puppy is definitely a keeper!

I haven't tried it in LOMAC yet, but in FSX, it works flawlessly!

I'll try and give a mini review here because I know you guys (and girls) are gonna wanna know about feel and performance.

First off, it feels solid! It is all metal and very sturdy. It sits firmly on the desk, BUT it definitely needs to be secured to the desk if you use anything beyond the F1 force setting. It does, however, come with a mounting plate and velcro strips that can be used to secure it to the desk. Alternately, you could bolt it down (there are holes and bolts for both the throttle and the stick) I tried all of the default force settings and they all will result in pulling the stick base off of the front feet. I'm going to try the velcro approach and see how that works before I result to any other method of securing it to the desk.

The throttle quadrant is pretty tight - even at its loosest setting - and any large amount of force will cause it to tilt on its base just like the stick. The friction can be adjusted on the underside with an included Allen wrench, however you should exercise caution when trying to tighten or loosen the friction - I stripped the Allen bolt a bit trying to loosen it! The precision of the throttle, though, is very good and there's definitely no play in it. there are detents for idle and afterburner, but because of the tightness, it requires some force to move the levers into those detents.

I've never used the Cougar with an FSSB mod, but I imagine it would feel much like the Saitek X65F. I've been in the cockpit of several F-16s and can definitely say that this feels very similar, despite the fact that there is no movement at all.

I thought it would take some getting used to to precisely control the aircraft, however it was immediately intuitive and I got the precise inputs from this stick that I was hoping for. It's almost as if you just have to THINK what you want it it will do it! Unlike the real F-16 stick, the Saitek has absolutely NO movement whatsoever. I thought that would be a turn-off for me, but (quite pleasantly) I found that I didn't need that tactile bit of movement at all.

I tested it with (of course) the Aerosoft and Iris F-16 add-ons and for the first time, I actually felt like I was flying an F-16! I've never had crisper, more precise 8-point rolls than I have with this stick! and holding a specific G number in climbs and turns is a breeze. The precision of the stick is just amazing... because there's no movement (and thus, no self-centering) wherever you point the aircraft, that's where it will stay until you apply force in another direction. This allows very precise inputs needed for formation flying. There's no play at all!

One really great thing I like is that with the included control panel, you can set the force to one of four presets - ON THE FLY! No need to stop the sim and switch to the software! There are also eight other programmable buttons on the control panel that can give you countless profiles and modes.

The software that comes with the system is very simple to use and gives you precise control over the resistance of the control forces. It can be set in either pounds or kilograms and it gives instant feedback in the software. I should also mention here that it DOES work perfectly with Windows 7 64-bit! It allows for subtle curve adjustments and is much easier to program than the Foxy software (though Foxy is undoubtedly more granular). The Saitek software will allow you to adjust the aileron and elevator forces separately, which is nice! Becuase this stick also includes a force-sensing rudder axis, I disabled that axis in the set-up so that I could keep the rudder pedals I already have.

One nice feature of the stick is that it comes with a clip-on rest for the heel of your hand that will allow you to control the elevator more with wrist pressure than with a full arm pull.

As for buttons, knobs, and mini-sticks there's no shortage whatsoever and you can pretty much program them any way you want. I haven't gone too deep into the SST programming software yet, but it seems that there are endless possibilities for programming the various buttons.

My only negative comment would be with the throttle - both the tightness of the friction and the fact that the split throttle isn't more like the F-16 throttle in terms of feel and function. I'm wondering, though if it is possible to get a DB9 to USB adapter and use the Cougar throttle independent of the the Cougar joystick? Regardless, you still have to have the Saitek throttle connectected because the other two pieces (stick and control panel) connect to the throttle quadrant. The connections seem to be just standard PS2-type connections.

I have to say that I consider the $399 price tag to be money that is VERY well spent! It's totally worth it to me and far less complicated than modding a stock Cougar.

If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to ask! I'll do my best to answer!

Now, back to flying! :)

Best,
Greg
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Panther
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Post by Panther » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:21 pm

Glad you like it. I don't and I can give several reasons one of which you already mentioned. There is no need for the throttle at the lowest setting to be so tight. Idle and AB detent soft.

The buttons, couldn't feel if I even pressed them. Saitek spent a lot of time with the force sensing, but they forgot about the whole HOTAS concept...
Last edited by Panther on Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ggerman
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Post by ggerman » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:44 pm

That's odd because even with gloves on, I can feel everything on both the stick and throttle... the buttons are easily pressed and the ministicks are easy to manipulate. There's definitely a crisp sensation when pushing any of the buttons, for me at least. I think the placement is very good too... I can get to everything without looking.. buttons, trim wheels, ministicks, hat switches...

Maybe you just got a bad stick, but everything on mine feels and works great... it feels even better than the one I tried at CES - and that one felt great too!

The only button I think lacks feedback is the pinky switch on the front of the throttle... it feels a little mushy, but all the others feel wonderful!
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Teej
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Re: Saitek X65F - One word: AWESOME!

Post by Teej » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:28 pm

ggerman wrote:I'm wondering, though if it is possible to get a DB9 to USB adapter and use the Cougar throttle independent of the the Cougar joystick?
Absolutely not.

First, it's a DB15, not a DB9.

Second, it's not a serial device, so a "USB - serial" adapter won't work.

Unless someone has already made one specifically for this purpose (adapting a cougar throttle to USB) no off the shelf part will work. USB more closely resembles ethernet than any sort of game port or serial port...despite the name. It has 4 wires - power/ground and D-/D+ differential signalling wires. You'd have as much luck as you would plugging your throttle into your ethernet switch.

All the brains (calibration, button/axis mapping/emulation) are in the stick base - the throttle is not a standalone piece.
ggerman
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Re: Saitek X65F - One word: AWESOME!

Post by ggerman » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:24 pm

Well then I guess I've got a Thrustmaster paperweight!
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Teej
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Re: Saitek X65F - One word: AWESOME!

Post by Teej » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:40 am

ggerman wrote:Well then I guess I've got a Thrustmaster paperweight!
Someone could make an adapter to put it out there as a controller. I'm just saying I'd be truly shocked if anyone already has. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably make one myself, but (and I say this having made native USB code before) the learning curve is pretty steep.

However, I happen to like my Cougar just the way it is. :D
ggerman
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Re: Saitek X65F - One word: AWESOME!

Post by ggerman » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:38 am

I like the throttle just fine... but unfortunately the stick was junk from the day I got it. That's why Raytheon quit using them in the UCS... (that's where I got mine). They kept a bunch of the throttles though, so that leads me to believe that someone there has created some sort of USB adapter. They ended up developing their own prototype sticks (which is what I've been using till now). It is very much like an F-18 stick (but it's a full "to-the-floor" column - not a desktop unit)... but they use the Cougar throttle with it. I've been using an X-52 Pro throttle with mine.

Come to think of it, they are using Cougar throttles upstairs at GD as well... but I'm not sure what the stick is that they're using... I do know it's not a Cougar. Probably something their engineers cooked up in-house. I think I'll check with them on Monday and see what kind of connection they are using. :wink:
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Teej
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Re: Saitek X65F - One word: AWESOME!

Post by Teej » Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:43 pm

I was thinking about this a bit further.

It would probably be fairly simple to make a Cougar throttle <-> game port adapter... though I don't know if you'd get all the functions out of it. You could then plug that into a game port <-> USB adapter.

I don't think a standard old school joystick port would handle more than 4 pots though, and unless they're doing some sort of trickery, the Cougar throttle has 5 (throttle, microstick x/y, range / elevation).
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Re: Saitek X65F - One word: AWESOME!

Post by ggerman » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:11 am

I think what I'll probably do is just plug it all up like normal, but hide the stick in the cabinet next to my desk, and then just use the throttle... I'll then disable the X axis & Y axis and assign the Z-axis for the throttle. Then I'll keep the Saitek stick, hide the throttle to that, and disable the Z-Axis. That way, I get the throttle I want, the stick I want, and don't lose any functionality.

While I'm a bit of a craftsman, I just don't have the time or motivation to craft a USB adapter and the test and troubleshoot any problems.

I appreciate your thoughts, Teej, but I'm all for taking the easy route! LOL!
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dudeman750
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Thanks for the review!

Post by dudeman750 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:52 pm

I have always been a fan of Saitek for many years now. I have been watching this product for a few months. I am using an X-52 which is OK IMO but not quite as accurate as I would like for formation flying.

I wonder what the price will settle down to after a while on this unit. It's definately a lot cheaper than a FSSB for the Cougar!
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Post by Cobra » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:42 pm

I'll be getting one in the next 2-3 days. Standby for my review as well.
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