FSSB resistance

Post by **Lawndart** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:09 am

Take a look at page 16 of the FSSB manual: http://www.realsimulator.com/Doc/FSSB_m ... nglish.pdf

How come they label and specify the resistance as 6-8 (six or eight) and 17-25 (seventeen or twenty-five) and then underneath the picture the table shows 6, 8, 10 and 21 lbs as force settings?

Which one is it? 17-25 or 10-21?

...or does someone know if they have different force settings for different builds/batches of the FSSB's? Mine had a 17-25 and it definitely felt really heavy in comparison to the 6 or 8 pound settings.

Burner · Post by **Burner** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:04 am

I've been wanting to buy one of these Linear Spring Scale ever since I bought the FSSB, the real F-16 force is measured from just below the trigger. I wondered how the FSSB stacks up.

Post by **Gunner** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:13 am

LD -
They do make it a bit confusing don't they? In the text, and labeling next to the microswitches, they give the two ranges, but the table on page 16 is very clear. I just went by the table, and that seems correct to me. My first setup was 6 lbs x-axis, 8 lbs y-axis. I have since stepped them both up to 10 lbs, and that seems best for me. It certainly doesn't feel like double the force from the 8 lbs setting. I did try 21lbs for one day, and it did seem at least double. Kinda felt like pulling a dump truck around the sky

Post by **Gunner** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:25 am

Burner wrote:I've been wanting to buy one of these Linear Spring Scale ever since I bought the FSSB, the real F-16 force is measured from just below the trigger. I wondered how the FSSB stacks up.

Burner - I just tried, they won't sell those to you unless you are a school. I'll llook around some more, shouldn't be hard to find.

Burner · Post by **Burner** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:34 pm

Oh yeah those spring scales are dime a dozen. I posted the first Google link I found for illustration purposes. Let us all know what you find when you get one.

Post by **Redeye** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:06 pm

I had been flying with 6lbs on both X and Y.
It gives a sensitive feel.

Listening to Gunner on vent, i now use 8lbs on the Y pitch axis and its less sensitive.

Now, i hear Gunner has increase to 10 lbs on both....ummmm?

Post by **Lawndart** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:12 pm

Gunner wrote:In the text, and labeling next to the microswitches, they give the two ranges, but the table on page 16 is very clear.

Those aren't "ranges", they just refer to which side of you need to move either one or both of the microswitches to, for 6 or 8 pounds. So, the question is really:

Should the table be: 6, 8, 17, 25 or 6, 8, 10, 21?

I understand your point from flying both Gunner, but does anyone have an official answer? Are there some FSSB's out there (older batch maybe) that actually had the 10 and 21 pound settings printed on the device itself. It doesn't make sense to have a setting called 17-25 (seventeen or twenty-five) when in reality it's 10 or 21 lbs.

Post by **Lawndart** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:20 pm

Redeye wrote:Now, i hear Gunner has increase to 10 lbs on both....ummmm?

If you have a way to mount the stick or strap it down solid, then 10 lbs on the y-axis should give you more of a range while flying and stronger forearms!

For roll or the x-axis it makes little sense to have more than 8 lbs (or even 6 lbs) unless you simply want a real pit and have the Cougar as secure as it would be in a real pit.

You want to be able to smoothly, control the pitch, fly with nose down trim but at the same time be able to bracket your roll inputs during heavy back pressure loads. Fine precision in pitch is key (in other words a "heavier" y-axis setting yields more of a workable range of pressures); however, for roll being able to make quick but minute inputs of ailerons is key, even during constant and "heavy pulls". A "lighter" setting for roll yields better results.

My settings are 6 lbs for roll and 8 lbs for pitch (I may consider 10 lbs for pitch if that setting really exists though, but still keep 6 lbs on the roll). Btw, what are the real resistance settings in the F-16? I'd imagine their x/y-axis settings are different from one another too, just higher resistance compared to the FSSB, but with the ratio between the two interesting for us to find out!

Post by **Gunner** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:02 pm

LD-
I set both x and y to the higher setting because I was fighting accidental aileron and pitch inputs, especially in heavy pulls. Maybe I need to play with a little more dead zone until I can become smooooth like you and the other VTB's

I still haven't found a setting that overcomes ineptitude...where is that one BTW?

Post by **Lawndart** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:17 pm

Did some research about the real F-16 stick and here's the best answer I've got:

The stick can move approximately 1/4 inch in both axes, and is rotated slightly clockwise and fwd. Maximum nose up and nose down pitch commands are generated by 25 and 16 pounds of input, respectively. Roll commands are generated by a maximum of 17 pounds in cruise gains and by 12 pounds in takeoff and landing gains. This also explains why the Solo cannot do a dirty ROTO (Roll on Takeoff). He has to wait for the gear to go up, otherwise the computer will limit the roll rate and he'll also have 12 lbs of max force instead of 17 lbs.
As soon as there is a change in pressure on the stick, the aircraft will respond accordingly

While this means you can never simulate the real forces with FSSB completely accurately, the closest you can come is by having 25 lbs on the y-axis (even though the real stick would have only 16 lbs when moved fwd on the y-axis) and then selecting 17 lbs on the x-axis for roll, given that this is the force used in the real jet in the cruise regime.

What this translates to with the FSSB for desk usage is that if you select 10 lbs (assuming that is a setting... which is still unconfirmed) on your y-axis, your roll should be 6.8 lbs to match the real thing as closely as possible (in other words setting either 6 or 8 lbs on your FSSB). With 8lbs on the y-axis, the roll axis should be set to 5.44 lbs for the closest authenticity (in other words the 6 lbs setting).

If you can truly fixate or build a pit that can house the Cougar FSSB and secure it, selecting 25 lbs for pitch (y-axis) and 17 lbs for roll (x-axis) would be almost identical to the real thing (minus the fly-by-wire tweaks and the 16 pounds of maximum nose down). This also assumes that the "heavier" settings on the FSSB are 17 and 25 lbs (which would make sense, since those are the actual forces in the real F-16 and coincidentally also labeled on the FSSB itself)!

Hope this helps!

LD

P.S. And the trophy goes to...

Post by **Lawndart** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:46 pm

I still don't understand the reasoning behind writing 17-25 on the force senor base. The real F-16 using 17 lbs (x-axis) and 25 lbs (y-axis), but then making the FSSB with the two higher settings 10 and 21 lbs respectively...

However, (Gunner), I can confirm this is the case after testing each setting very closely. Mine is definitely 6, 8, 10 & 21 lbs...

I've already contacted RS for an answer regarding this and wait to hear back. Maybe it has to do with build dates of the FSSB's? Or maybe they just labeled them all 17/25 lbs but decided to "mimic" this with 10/21 lbs instead?

Either way, mine has 17/25 printed on it, but I'm one hundred percent confident the ranges go in increments of "6 lbs + 2, +2, + double the amount".

Burner · Post by **Burner** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:51 pm

I'm glad the resistors are set to 10/21lb on the higher range. Now that I'm used to 8lb in the Y-axis I think securing the stick and mounting my elbow will allow for easy 10lb operation, this will also put the X/Y ratio at 0.60, the real F-16 X/Y ratio being 0.68.

LD, what was your testing method to determine that the settings are indeed 10/21lb, and at what point on the stick did you take the readings?

Post by **Lawndart** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:00 pm

My testing method was the millions of sensors located in my hand and then verified by firing up Foxy's joystick analyzer to confirm!

I tested each setting several times using no engineering equip (sorry Burner), but just merely my own strength. It was very clear that the steps were in increments of 2 lbs until the last step where it instantly felt doubled!

Btw, I chose 8 lbs on the roll axis for better precision (deficiencies with the FSSB compared to a real stick) and although the ratio ends up 0.8, the optimal ratio of 0.68 is still almost in the middle between the 6 and 8 lbs settings if using 10 lbs on the pitch axis. I need precision in the x-axis for the Slow Roll... hehe!

Post by **Gunner** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:02 pm

A very old thread, but I finally bought a scale today so I could actually test the settings on my FSSB

The settings in the table on page 15 of the FSSB manual are quite accurate. I have mine set to 21lbs Y, and 10lbs X. Pulling with a scale attached to a strap situated on the stick where my two pulling fingers rest, full deflection in Foxy is 22lbs. If I move the strap up to the trigger, it's 19lbs. X axis is right at 10lbs both directions.
With our nose-down trim setting, I'm pulling a constant 8lbs to achieve neutral pitch.

Burner · Post by **Burner** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:39 pm

That's great information Gunner. However due to FSSB not physically moving, 21lb of stick force is harder to attain than in the real F-16 with the slightly moving stick. It also makes your X/Y ratio very roll sensitive- 10lb/21lb = 0.48 which is even more sensitive than my extremely sensitive 6lb/10lb = 0.6. LD uses 0.8. Something to consider now that we have hard data.