Backseat with the Thunderbirds - CAFB 2011

Discussions about the U.S. Air Force Air Demonstration Squadron
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Lawndart
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Backseat with the Thunderbirds - CAFB 2011

Post by Lawndart » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:45 pm

Shotgun15e wrote:Got a chance to fly with the USAF Thunderbirds today out of Nellis AFB and through a full show practice at Creech AFB. Flew in the #3 jet with Nuke.


Interesting to see how much/little movment they have within the formation. There's also a shot of the #7 jet, flying chase, coming into view at one point.

Be sure to watch in full screen 720p! :D
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Post by Ells » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:14 pm

WOW!!!

Very little movement indeed there bud.

Hey is that DCS Nevada terrain I see there, hehe.
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Post by Lawndart » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:46 pm

Ells wrote:Very little movement indeed there bud.
Depends on how you look at it...

There is very little movement, sure, but it's actually more than we try to have in FC2 when flying. The cool part is that the way it looks from inside the cockpit is so much more pronounced than it is from down on the ground, and there's no difference in that between real life and the sim.

It's cool to see the real team actually looking a lot like we do during practice. Sight pictures might be moving around a little bit (more than you'd like at times), but the jet basically remains at the same coordinates relative to the jet nearby.

It makes it human-like, instead of being flown by robots or always being perfect... and at least for me, it makes me appreciate the difficulty in what we do and what the guys in the blue flightsuits do that much more!
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Post by Ells » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:14 pm

Well that's like some of the comments I had when putting the vid together with back seat views, oh look we're moving about a lot.
My answer was exactly the same, we're not robots and it's not scripted.

The fact that a slight muscle twinge in your hand can move the plane, I think, is awesome and testiment to the scripting of the sim and the hardware we use these days.

We all thought we had a lousy practice last night from in the cockpit, but when you look at it from the ground, it's looking pretty darn good and a completely different perspective.

I like the realism and the slight ripples down the line when I'm way out on outer outer wing, I think it adds some realism to the show, especially when doing back seat shots.

I mean is there no wind or turbulance when flying in the real world, of course there is so I think it looks more real when you have small movements.

Trying to get 9 planes looking like different shapes in exactly the same sight reference whilst banking, looping and rolling is what makes it fun for me and like you guys, the pride to do something that gives so many entertainment. The old feel warm in your heart feeling.

Plus the fact that we are representing our countries greatest Air Forces makes it even more special for me.

And on a side note, it's great news that you guys are up and flying again and I can't wait to see you live.
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Post by Lawndart » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:20 am

When a real formation encounters turbulence, it actually isn't that big of a deal. Since these guys fly so close together, they tend to go through the rough air as unit with minimal relative movement between the jets.

I agree though, that while we all strive for perfection (and you have to aim pretty darn high and not be satisfied with "almost there"), the fluidity of seeing the pilot at work is what makes it real in the virtual skies. It would be boring really fast if everyone kept nailing their flying routine every single time...

To quote JFK (as Teej and I've been doing a lot lately): "We choose to do this and other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."
Ells wrote:...it's great news that you guys are up and flying again and I can't wait to see you live.
That's the goal, and we have multiple things in the works. Soon...

We've also started flying real world parameters, actually pulling 4G formation loops at speeds ~450 knots. Not only that, but we're flying with correct fuel loads now too and burning JP8, so the jets get lighter as the show goes on, and you can't rely on burner to save your butt (too often), or you'll go bingo before the demo is over. The next step might be adding some wind and weather. Within reason, you could say we've elevated the realism to match the real guys even more this season.

The good news is, it feels great and I think we'll end up topping our '09 performance. That's the benchmark, and while I know most of you never got a chance to see the second half due to streaming issues - there might be something we can do about that too.

So, to end this side note... We're back and hard at work mastering our flying in FC2 with new params, flight model and exciting results to come! Flying the same way the real guys fly (at the real speeds) not only raises the difficulty level, but is also very rewarding when you watch the replays.
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Post by Ells » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:46 am

Lawndart wrote:To quote JFK (as Teej and I've been doing a lot lately): "We choose to do this and other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."
Ah one of my favourite quotes...
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things...

Awesome news bud.
I've been thinking about real world weather too and will talk to the team about it after our spring shows.

Good luck VTB!!!
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Post by Frazer » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:12 pm

Lawndart wrote:When a real formation encounters turbulence, it actually isn't that big of a deal. Since these guys fly so close together, they tend to go through the rough air as unit with minimal relative movement between the jets.
Partly true I think, thermals are usually smaller in size than a delta formation. As a glider pilot, I experienced quite often that one wing is lifted and the other dropped. This can be quite violent as the air around a thermal drops with a similar speed. This "border" of air rising and falling can be as small as a couple of feet. Jets though, aren't as light and don't have very effective wings compared to gliders, and next to that they fly way faster. I think because of that jet's aren't affected by turbulence that greatly and will only occur as "little bounces" relative to eachother.

Still though, these "little bounces" will give pilots a rough time and that is something we as virtual formation pilot don't have to deal with (yet).


Great to hear you guys are taking another step towards reality!
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Post by Lawndart » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:26 pm

If you'd like to hear, first hand, the comments by Lt. Col. Malachowski when she describes how the formation experiences turbulence, check this...

Thread: Smithsonian Lecture-Major Nicole Malachowski
Video: [url=mms://media1.smithsonian.museum/nasm/2008/2008_03_27_General_Electric_Lecture.wmv]An Evening with America's First Female Thunderbird Pilot[/url] (1:20:22)

(I don't remember when in the video she talks about it, but it's in there).
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Post by Ells » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:01 pm

Cool thanks LD, and Frazer
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Post by Rhino » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:40 pm

Like I said, you will find FC2 MUCH more forgiving in a higher G/higher airspeed configuration for a maneuver. 400kts at 3-4 Gs is very attainable now, whereas with FC1, 350/3Gs was about the max you would want to get.

I can't wait to see that Diamond 360 of yours flown at real world params. Good luck!
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Post by Lawndart » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:32 pm

The D360 shouldn't pose any problems. Toughest part is not overspending the entry, since it takes more power to sustain speed in that (horizontal) high-G maneuver than any other. It's pretty smooth even at 400 KIAS.

The other thing FC2 has allowed is flying with minimal, almost no power changes. 85% fan speed gets almost every pass right on target. (The real team averages 83-84%). The jets are slick (and polished) too. Playing the kinetic vs. potential energy game gets the job done, while using induced drag to bleed speed and prolonged unloads (still in the positive G range) to gain knots.

I agree with Rhino's comments about FC2 being much more forgiving, but let's not confuse that with it being easier. It's feels more realistic and more life-like to me, and ground rushes by at a very fast pace, so it's important to never let the aircraft take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes earlier.
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Post by Rhino » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:50 pm

Agree with the 85% fan speed comment. That's been my sweet spot. You should also try flying WITHOUT unlimited fuel. We start with a full tank and the solos end with around 1500lbs (which is pretty much spot on with what the Blues experience).
Lawndart wrote:I agree with Rhino's comments about FC2 being much more forgiving, but let's not confuse that with it being easier.
You mean, they fly like REAL airplanes? :D
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Post by Lawndart » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:59 pm

Rhino wrote:Agree with the 85% fan speed comment. That's been my sweet spot. You should also try flying WITHOUT unlimited fuel. We start with a full tank and the solos end with around 1500lbs (which is pretty much spot on with what the Blues experience).
I guess you didn't read my previous post... ;)
Lawndart wrote:Not only that, but we're flying with correct fuel loads now too and burning JP8, so the jets get lighter as the show goes on, and you can't rely on burner to save your butt (too often), or you'll go bingo before the demo is over. The next step might be adding some wind and weather. Within reason, you could say we've elevated the realism to match the real guys even more this season.
We've turned off unlimited fuel since FC2 came out (and collected a bunch of fuel burn data early on and compared it to the real team's burn off numbes throughout the show). Stopped using labels many years ago, so the only crutch remaining is zero wind and someone might argue padlock/views... although, at some point it becomes more difficult than real life on a PC!
Rhino wrote:You mean, they fly like REAL airplanes?
More believable for sure, and ED is far from perfect, but leaps better than _that_ other sim.
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Post by Frazer » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:47 am

Lawndart wrote:If you'd like to hear, first hand, the comments by Lt. Col. Malachowski when she describes how the formation experiences turbulence, check this...

Thread: Smithsonian Lecture-Major Nicole Malachowski
Video: [url=mms://media1.smithsonian.museum/nasm/2008/2008_03_27_General_Electric_Lecture.wmv]An Evening with America's First Female Thunderbird Pilot[/url] (1:20:22)

(I don't remember when in the video she talks about it, but it's in there).
Interesting speach there, came over her comments about turbulence at 01:01:30. Doesn't change that I think there is more behind it, but that doesn't really matter. The interesting lesson here is "not to fight turbulence".

Her comment after that is also interesting, not mentioning you guys when she answers a question about "if they do formation training with a simulator". :wink:
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Post by Ells » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:28 am

One thing I've noticed with our jets when labels are off (which I always fly with them off now) is they are very hard to see if you're coming from above.

It seems like our red color just blends in with the ground. Of course knowing where one should be in exactly the right time helps and of course adds that extra realism for me.

We were actually discussing last night our speeds and G pulls and match the Reds almost perfectly give or take a couple of points of G.

Most of the time we're at 80-82% in transitions and then power up to 90% for the loops and rolls, powering back to 80% on the way down with boards.

Of course when we're in 9 Arrow, my power is almost idle when we start the right turn and higher power in the left turns. The joys of being right out on the outer outer wing. I'm suprised my throttle quadrant hasn't given up yet, hehe.

It will be interesting to see how much difference wind and turbulance will make. How much were you thinking of adding LD?
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