High Show - Low Show and Lack of Narration

Rotorblade · Post by **Rotorblade** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:26 pm

I was at a Thunderbirds show this weekend in Duluth Minnesota and I think I experienced a wierd show. I was listening to my scanner and I heard them talking about not being able to do a high show even though the weather was permitting. They were using both of the two-seaters instead of the normal singe seat F-16s. The narration stopped half way through the show because I think it was a mixture of low show with a few high show manuevers. I was hoping I could get a little insight from you guys as to what problems the team has when they use two 2-seaters and why the narration would stop. It was not nearly the same quality show that I saw on Tuesday of last week in which they used one two seater and performed a high show.

two shots showing the double seaters
http://www.virtualsnowbirds.com/temp/IMG_4550.JPG
http://www.virtualsnowbirds.com/temp/IMG_4597.JPG

extra pic of the Snowbirds and Thunderbirds.
http://www.virtualsnowbirds.com/temp/IMG_4475.JPG

Pepsi_Guy · Post by **Pepsi_Guy** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:42 pm

I too went to the show in Duluth on Saturday. I did notice them using two D models which I found interesting. I also noticed that #6 taxied out at the last minute.

I never did notice the narration quiting, but I do agree it looked like they mixed shows...
Hey, who needs narration anyways?

Is the trail to diamond roll, arrowhead roll, and delta roll part of the low show? Cause they did do those and thats what I thought was weird.

It was a great show though! As always from the Thunderbirds.

Tomcatboy48237 · Post by **Tomcatboy48237** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:23 pm

The trail to diamond and delta rolls are in both the low and high shows. The arrowhead roll is in the low show only, the high show includes the arrowhead loop.

Post by **Lawndart** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:57 pm

Without any information about this show in particular, sounds like they either may have had maintenance cycles on the jets that meant they would be flying two "family models"; however, if 6 had a late squawk he may have had to taxi out late when the issue was resolved?

The Thunderbirds aim to fly a "High Show", but for operational reasons are sometimes forced to change to a "Low" or "Flat Show". Weather being the most common reason, but not necessarily. Winds, density altitude (temperature, elevation and available power), equipment etc could play a factor in the decision. Lastly, it is not uncommon that they change from a "High" to a "Low Show" on the fly and back again if whatever caused the change is temporary in nature and I can see how that could cause a disruption in the flow of a show (incl. narration). All these "what if's" are part of the profile and the pilots are fully aware of the new sequence and procedures of maneuvers in circumstances like these.

Tomcatboy, got it right regarding the maneuvers flown during a "Low Show". Rolls are considered "Low maneuvers". Anything vertical is a "High Show" maneuver.

Hope that helps, even though I have no idea what the circumstances were this past weekend.

LD

FutureThunderbird · Post by **FutureThunderbird** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:39 pm

Alright I just got back from the Grand Forks AFB Show with the Thunderbirds performing, I too noticed a complete lack of naration towards the end starting at the delta series and up until landing.

I also have a question about the Narrator they had the number 11 pilot, I think the maintenence chief narrate the show. The reason I think this happened is because the 7 pilot left right after the engine check before the show off to tomorrow's show site in Wyoming. So I was wondering how often does this happen that they switch narrators, just on rare occasions like this, or more often?

Definetely a great show from the T-birds, did a high show. One incident I must point out though, is that during the final passes when they do the diamond pass and the 2 solos on top of each other, the #4 pilot didn't fly in the diamond. The 1,2,3 pilots flew by, then the 5,6 pilots. Is it always like that or what?

All in all a great day, It gone long towards the end though because the T-birds performed in the middle and I'm used to the big act being the closer. But whatever...

Post by **Lawndart** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:23 pm

FutureThunderbird wrote: I also have a question about the Narrator they had the number 11 pilot, I think the maintenance chief narrate the show. The reason I think this happened is because the 7 pilot left right after the engine check before the show off to tomorrow's show site in Wyoming. So I was wondering how often does this happen that they switch narrators, just on rare occasions like this, or more often?

Thunderbird 8 is the Advance Pilot/Narrator. You probably saw Thunderbird #8 takeoff in the two seater or D model after the engine runs. It's very possible it had a number 7 painted on it, but I can guarantee you that Thunderbird #7 was watching and critiquing the show until the end right there with you!

I haven't heard of #8 leaving prior to a show to go to another show site, but it could be a possibility since the other part of his title is "advance pilot" meaning he flies to the show sites in advance to coordinate all the efforts. If Thunderbird 11 narrated, I'm sure he did a fine job, but since it's not his usual duty it may have seemed different. Thunderbird 11 is btw, the Maintenance Officer and not a pilot.

Definitely a great show from the T-birds, did a high show. One incident I must point out though, is that during the final passes when they do the diamond pass and the 2 solos on top of each other, the #4 pilot didn't fly in the diamond. The 1,2,3 pilots flew by, then the 5,6 pilots. Is it always like that or what?

Depends... There are a handful of ways they end the show. if it was a remote show (no takeoff and landing) they normally open and close with a Delta Pass directly towards the crowd at the end. During shows where they perform the takeoffs and landings at the site, they typically fly the diamond to the pitch and then the solo's finishing with the reflection pitch (mirror image) before landing. But given what you're telling us though and what seems to be another show at a different site the next day, I would venture to guess that they did not land and simply continued to that destination, ending with a diamond pass and the reflection pass before heading out? This would also explain why they flew the show earlier in the afternoon, since it gives the pilots and support personnel much more time to prepare for the show the following day at a different location. They all need to pack up and go as soon as the show is over and the pilots also fly their timing runs and orientation flights (memorizing checkpoints and landscape), possibly even a practice show at the next show site before the day comes to an end. In other words, a lot to cram into the day with those back-to-back shows at different locations. Not to mention the de-brief and briefings too...

Glad you enjoyed the show!
LD

FutureThunderbird · Post by **FutureThunderbird** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:55 pm

Yah I know #11 is not a pilot, and oops, messed the numbers up there.

But, they did land after the show, they did the diamond and solos pass and then one more delta pass to pitch out. I was there until atleast 4:30 and they still handn't left, they packed everything up though. So they'll have a busy night in Wyoming.

Post by **Lawndart** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:02 pm

Well, there you go... Guess they decided to finish with the Delta Pitch instead, which explains why they flew a Diamond Flat Pass followed by the Reflection Pass prior. About the rest, who knows... but, you're right about one thing: They will be busy as bee's...

LD

Ghostrider · Post by **Ghostrider** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:04 am

First of all, I want to thank all of the personnel involved on the VThunderbirds, past and present. You present a skill and excellence not seen in much of the Virtual Community. From one V fighter pilot to another: THANKS!

Just letting you know, I went to the airshow in Casper on Sun for the Thunderbirds. #8 left that morning for Cheyenne, and #11 did the narration that day. It was the full narration though, so I don't know what happened with up in ND.

The Thunderbirds arrived in Casper at about 1810 hours MDT Sat evening and flew over the field to get timing marks. We tried to beat them to Cheyenne on Sun afternoon, but of course didn't.

I have a vid I put together from the Casper performance. If you want, check it out:

http://media.putfile.com/Tbirds1

Again
Thanks!

FALCON56 · Post by **FALCON56** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:07 pm

nice video...thanks for the post

STRIKER · Post by **STRIKER** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:15 pm

Just to FYI you on #11. He was the narrator as well at the Kirtland show that I helped out and one of the reasons why here was because his prior assignment was my squadron and this was sorta alittle homecoming. Other than that I think #8 might have went to Battle Creek to setup their on the show day cause the TBirds had a show their next.....but who really knows? Any real Tbirds out there, could use your expertise.